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   Undertoad  Wednesday Oct 24 10:52 AM

10/24: Indonesian protest



They don't like the US in Indonesia right now, and here they protest. But why, why, why an albino buffalo to represent GWB?

Sorry for missing not one but TWO days of IotD in the last week. Luckily people are posting their own images to bail me out. It remains hard to find good stuff out there as news photographers focus on the serious, and most of the serious is things you've already seen. I can't believe they continue to show the WTC rubble cleanup; it may be just a call to remember the whole thing, but the pictures are pretty much the same every day.



russotto  Wednesday Oct 24 11:03 AM

Re: 10/24: Indonesian protest

Quote:
Originally posted by Undertoad


They don't like the US in Indonesia right now, and here they protest. But why, why, why an albino buffalo to represent GWB?
They couldn't afford an elephant?


scampo  Wednesday Oct 24 11:36 AM

roflmao



dave  Wednesday Oct 24 12:50 PM

The entire community of protestors overseas are generally misinformed by propaganda by their "religious leaders". No joke.

This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.

If someone is talking to you about how we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan, ask them "Why?" - when they start reasoning that you can't fight violence with violence (for whatever reason they give), punch them in the face. If they move to hit you back, say "Ah ah ah, can't fight violence with violence." If they hit you, they lose. If they don't, let them keep speaking. Then punch them in the face again. Repeat as necessary.

Remember, you're doing them a favor.



juju2112  Wednesday Oct 24 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dhamsaic
The entire community of protestors overseas are generally misinformed by propaganda by their "religious leaders". No joke.
The lack of forethought in this statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this statement also applies to Americans? (nix'ing the religious part, of course)

Quote:

This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.

If someone is talking to you about how we shouldn't be bombing Afghanistan, ask them "Why?" - when they start reasoning that you can't fight violence with
iolence (for whatever reason they give), punch them in the face. If they move to hit you back, say "Ah ah ah, can't fight violence with violence." If they hit you, they lose. If they don't, let them keep speaking. Then punch them in the face again. Repeat as necessary.

Remember, you're doing them a favor.
While I agree that violence should be retaliated against, this analogy fails, because the here victim immediately knows the source of the violence. A more adequate analogy would be if I punched you in the face and then you bombed McDonald's because I ate there yesterday.

And then an order is sent out to all newspapers telling them not to air any of my "terrorist propaganda" about why I did it -- The only possible motivation that I could have possibly had is that of a crazed and obsessive terrorist.

Patriotism is evil, because it causes people not to think -- they just blindly support. Like sheep.

(no hard feelings tho... I had fun writing this. Anyway, I guess we agree on the violence thing at least. )

--- juju


TheDollyLlama  Wednesday Oct 24 03:51 PM

Addidas Cap?

Anyone notice that the dude leading the cow is wearing an Addidas cap? If he hates america, he needs to get his shit together.

Reminds me of a picture I saw just after Sep 11, where Palestinian boys were celebrating the "great satan" being bombed. One of the boys was wearing a Bears jersey.



blowmeetheclown  Wednesday Oct 24 04:14 PM

uhhhh, as I recall, isn't Adidas a German brand? So "Getting his shit together" would mean that he can't make that beast into a hamburger... Wait!!



TheDollyLlama  Wednesday Oct 24 04:28 PM

color me corrected

I think you're right. Addidas may be german. The idea of the post remains though. Look at the banners that the guys are wearing. The guy on the right appears to have one that reads "German"



MaggieL  Wednesday Oct 24 05:35 PM

Re: color me corrected

Quote:
Originally posted by TheDollyLlama
I think you're right. Addidas may be german. The idea of the post remains though. Look at the banners that the guys are wearing. The guy on the right appears to have one that reads "German"
And the one on the left is apparently supposed to be from "Prance". No idea where " ...nggais" might be. ("English"?) And is that "KGB" bringing up the rear?

I guess we need to remeber these folks don't even know the roman alphabet. It dos highlight that the demonstrations are staged for the consumption of western media though.


dave  Wednesday Oct 24 09:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by juju2112


The lack of forethought in this statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that this statement also applies to Americans?
Here, watch this...

The lack of forethought in YOUR statement astounds me. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that it HAD occurred to me, and I STILL came to that conclusion? That is, by the way, the case. FURTHERMORE, I didn't say a fucking thing about about US BEING BETTER. I simply said what I see, NOT COMPARING IT TO MY SOCIETY IN ANY WAY. So, YOU can FUCK RIGHT OFF, you and your ignorant, assuming nature.

Quote:
A more adequate analogy would be if I punched you in the face and then you bombed McDonald's because I ate there yesterday.
Uhm, no. That would be like if we bombed Pizza Hut because some of the terrorists ate there the night before. Which we didn't. Instead, we have been working hard to collect the evidence of those who collaborated on this. We are then seeking to dismantle their powerbase. When they are protected, we are seeking to dismantle that protection so that we can get to the real problem. The problem, of course, being those that support killing innocent civilians "where ever they are found." <-- Osama bin Laden's words, not mine. I seem to recall us gathering evidence, coming to the logical conclusion that al Qaida had some play in what transpired on September 11, waiting ALMOST A MONTH after the attacks, and THEN, after giving the government that harbors the terrorists A NUMBER OF CHANCES TO HAND OVER KNOWN TERRORIST OPERATIVES AND THEIR LEADERS, striking MILITARY TARGETS so we could send in a TARGETED GROUND CAMPAIGN to capture TERRORISTS while inflicting MINIMAL DAMAGE OTHERWISE.

For the record, I do know this is what we are doing. I work at a large government contractor. The software I write is used by the people that are carrying out these missions. Our contacts with the government, our customer, are close. And we are provided with feedback. So I'm not making this shit up, and I'm not reading it in the news. I'm hearing about how we are doing a good job, because software we have worked on has had a list of successes.


Quote:
The only possible motivation that I could have possibly had is that of a crazed and obsessive terrorist.
I'm glad you brought that to the table, though I didn't mention it. But since you did, I'll respond.

In all the reading I have done, everything indicates that those behind this attack were not crazed - obsessive, obviously. But not crazed. Why you chose that adjective, I don't know. I would speculate it was chosen to make my argument look weak and emotional instead of logical. But that's just speculation. Regardless, their motivation is irrelevant: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So even if they thought they were saving the US by killing off some 5,400 "crazed" Nazi punks, putting a highly over-valued economy back where it should be and keeping the American public from living a life too good and full of vise, the fact of the matter is that they MURDERED FIVE THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Golly gee willickers, Juju - I personally thought this was wrong. But if you have some trouble with the media portraying these people as indecent human beings, I'm not sure what to tell you.


Quote:
Patriotism is evil, because it causes people not to think -- they just blindly support. Like sheep.
Again, since I said NOTHING about it, I'm not sure why you're mentioning it. But I'm glad you did, because it gives me another chance to retort.

You can quote Oscar Wilde all you want, but it doesn't make you an intellect. "Patriotism is a virtue of the viscious." No. Blind patriotism is a virtue of the ignorant and/or inept. Those that follow their government, think they have a great country DESPITE ITS MANY FLAWS and STILL think that maybe the government should uphold its primary function, that being the PROTECTION OF ITS CITIZENS, could very well be considered patriots. If that's the case, then I am one. But calling patriots blind or evil is a statement wholly based on ignorance. From your comments, one could deduce that you never bothered to seek out whether some patriots are informed. You sling around gross generalizations like they're fact. I recall saying they were "generally misinformed" - you made no such concession, instead accusing all that fall under your vast, pre-defined umbrella of being "sheep", based on no tangible or credible evidence. At least I've read what you wrote and responded to that instead of calling you "a fucking cock sucker" for no good reason.

But yeah, sure, no hard feelings.


juju2112  Wednesday Oct 24 10:46 PM

Hmm... I didn't really mean for you to take it personally, I was merely being contrary for the sake of argument. I like arguments. But I don't like people hating me. So, although I do stand by my statements, i'm sorry that I offended you.

This is sort of why I don't like patriotism -- dissenting opnions are met with anger. Although perhaps you were responding from personal offense and not love of country. But anyway, how can someone be informed when they react like this to a different viewpoint?

I didn't know that was an Oscar Wilde quote..that's kinda cool. I just sorta thought it out myself. But now that you mention it I think I have heard that quote before. Maybe it was in my subconscious.

I could go into a point-by-point analysis on what you said, and I have thought of counterpoints, but I have no wish to be in a shouting match.



dave  Wednesday Oct 24 11:15 PM

I don't mind you being different. Or having different opinions. "I agree not with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire. I'm the same way.

I responded how I did because I felt your argument was baseless and ill-supported. I don't mind you telling me that you think I'm wrong - as long as you tell me WHY, and it MAKES SENSE ("You're wrong." "Why?" "Because you're ugly" != Logical). What's frustrating is when someone goes "yeah, you're an idiot" but they never mention WHY. I like discussion for the sake of discussion. Argument for the sake of argument is more like trolling. I'd rather someone at least added some substance to their claims instead of just fanning the flames.

As far as patriotism meaning "dissenting opinions are met with anger" - sorry, but no. I am a patriot, and I believe wholeheartedly on the ideas on which this country was founded. In a word, Freedom. That is what it really means to be a patriot. I am not angry that you feel the way you do - I retort because I feel you say it but don't back it with substance. Just SAYING doesn't mean anything unless you can offer EVIDENCE. It applies to everyone - you, jaguar, the government... and that's the way it should be. Many of the people in our country believe that to be a patriot is to blindly follow the government. Well, I believe in the country and the basis upon which it was founded. That doesn't necessarily mean that I place my faith solely in the government. Any true patriot would tell you that even though they think your post in a Philadelphia-based message board was kinda silly and not that well supported, they'd never dream of silencing you.

What I'm saying is, I do not agree with what you say, but I will gladly give my life if it means you have that FREEDOM that we are working so hard to defend right now. I just might think that you needed to back it up more for it to be effective.



jaguar  Wednesday Oct 24 11:27 PM

Quote:
You can quote Oscar Wilde all you want, but it doesn't make you an intellect. "Patriotism is a virtue of the viscious." No. Blind patriotism is a virtue of the ignorant and/or inept. Those that follow their government, think they have a great country DESPITE ITS MANY FLAWS and STILL think that maybe the government should uphold its primary function, that being the PROTECTION OF ITS CITIZENS, could very well be considered patriots. If that's the case, then I am one. But calling patriots blind or evil is a statement wholly based on ignorance. From your comments, one could deduce that you never bothered to seek out whether some patriots are informed. You sling around gross generalizations like they're fact. I recall saying they were "generally misinformed" - you made no such concession, instead accusing all that fall under your vast, pre-defined umbrella of being "sheep", based on no tangible or credible evidence.


I think is roughly what juju is trying to say.

Three is a fine line between arguing, debating and trolling. Sometimes I substitute the word argue for debate myself.

ohh I got special mention, care to tell which debate I was talking out my arse in? =)

Patriotism is dhamsaic is saying is all good but it is so often used as a tool but often anti-patriotic force as that cartoon is trying to say. Iíd consider Ashcroft as lowly as Bin Laden now if I was a 'patriot' because he is really probably doing more dammage to the constitution than bin laden ever will, although you could blame him on the basis one is the result of the other, in which case the anti-terrorism bill is just because the US gov is just stupid, which as not as bad as trying to use a time of danger to screw its citizens.

Quote:
waiting ALMOST A MONTH after the attacks, and THEN, after giving the government that harbors the terrorists A NUMBER OF CHANCES TO HAND OVER KNOWN TERRORIST OPERATIVES AND THEIR LEADERS, striking MILITARY TARGETS so we could send in a TARGETED GROUND CAMPAIGN to capture TERRORISTS while inflicting MINIMAL DAMAGE OTHERWISE.
History will judge the US's actions on what they do when they capture Bin Laden. A 'trial' in the US would be a farce as much as the show trials in Russia earlier last centaury, in reality he should be tried in The Hague; it was designed for this kind of thing. The Taliban offered to hand bin laden over for a trial in a neutral country, the US told them to piss off and kept bombing. While it was most probably just a smokescreen to stop the bombing sure if the United States was truly interested in *JUSTICE* not *REVENGE* then they would look seriously at this offer and ask for a country such as Switzerland.


Sorry to weigh into someone elseís debate but I just can't keep my mouth shut today.

Quote:
This whole "can't fight violence with violence" thing reminded me of something I read.
*sigh* Sure, but tthen you get pissed and punch them back again, net result: you both have broken noses, fanfuckingtastic. SO now you ahve two angry men which broken noses who are going o be pissed off at each other for a very long time. On the other hand if hte first bloke instead went ot the police and sued the guy for assult hes 10k richer and can afford plastic surgery to get an even better nose. (translation: surgical strike out bin laden, nothing else and mabye do something to alleviate the conditions that cause the problem in the first place) Read Issac Asimov's Foundation Trilliogy (don't read the second 3, they suck), please.


dave  Thursday Oct 25 12:57 AM

Re: a trial in the Hague... the fact of the matter is, you cannot guarantee an "impartial" jury ANYWHERE now. Period.

Let me clarify something. I live in Fairfax, Virginia. I work in Tyson's Corner, Virginia. Both are roughly 25 minutes from downtown Washington, D.C. Being a large government contractor, we have people that were in the Pentagon that day. A man I know, who worked in my building, was killed that day at the Pentagon. He lived in Fairfax. He has a four year old son and a wife that he's left behind. It could have been me. It could have been someone I work with that I know better than I knew Khang. I am close enough to Washington that a powerful enough attack could very easily cause harm or death to someone I know or love. Or me.

Now, I said that to illustrate the seriousness of this situation. There may come a day in the future where I drop off the Cellar. And you read in the news that a surface nuke went off at Tyson's Corner Center, the ritziest mall in Fairfax County, the wealthiest county in the country. They picked it to strike more fear into the average American - a big mall, but not a likely target. Not wholly unlikely either.

And all of a sudden, I'm gone. And so are thousands of people around me. Jenni works in Tyson's.

Maybe we're gone because we didn't fight back. Maybe the person that detonated that nuclear device would have been "neutralized" had a US jet dropped a bunker buster on an underground shelter some place in Afghanistan.

But we can't, 'cause we're not at war, right? That's what I hear some people saying. It's not a war. The enemy isn't defined.

Well, I sure as hell did hear Osama bin Laden calling for a jihad against Americans. ..."seek out and kill Americans, where ever they are." That, to me, indicates pretty explicitly that we are at war, our enemy defined - those who wage war on us.

Know that we didn't ask for this. Though our backing of Israel may, at times, be a bit extreme, the majority of the United States citizenship has nothing to do with this. Laura Angiletta didn't kill any Palestinians. She wasn't occupying Saudi soil. Look at that picture. Click that link. She's cute, isn't she? Her status got upgraded from "Reported Missing" to "Confirmed Dead" not too long ago.

For no good reason.

We fight this war against a defined enemy. We're not striking back and ending up with two broken noses. We're striking back because Laura Angiletta's body didn't become a mangled corpse for nothing.

To put it another way: if we strike back, we will be attacked. If we don't strike back, we will be attacked. Maybe this way we can keep mine, or Jenni's, or Donald's corpse from becoming a decomposing heap of meat in a month old pile of rubble. And while we're at it, we'll try real hard to keep that whole "pursuit of happiness" thing going too... I know I don't want my kids growing up in fear because we let the whole world know that we'll take it lying down.

When a man knows he can beat his wife, he will do it with impunity. When a man hits his wife and she clubs him in the head with a baseball bat, he may think twice about doing it next time.

Finally... a ground war on mainland Japan was avoided by dropping a Big Fucking Bomb. Lives were saved. Do you honestly doubt that this will turn out any other way?



jaguar  Thursday Oct 25 02:30 AM

QUOTE]Re: a trial in the Hague... the fact of the matter is, you cannot guarantee an "impartial" jury ANYWHERE now. Period. [/quote]
If you think he'd get a fairer or more fair trial in a US court than the Hague....


Quote:
Finally... a ground war on mainland Japan was avoided by dropping a Big Fucking Bomb. Lives were saved. Do you honestly doubt that this will turn out any other way?
Ok, so you bomb the shit out of Afghanistan. Kill bin laden, maybe a few of his top cronies if youíre lucky too. Wait 5 years and the next leader gets to add the bombing to his list of pretty reasonably grievances (and like griff I agree with the motives, not the methods). It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.

Policies of appeasement have had some spectacular failures *coughww2cough* but people don't kill themselves without a good reason. Parents would not send their kids to extremists Islamic schools if they had moneys to send them elsewhere, they don't have money coz there is shit all economy and generally shithsoue conditions. Sure we pump .0001%of our GDP into aid or something but come on.

A rather rough historical example would be this as a global French revolution

Yea. *US* lives were saved, million odd evil jap civvies were killed but what the heck. That was an entirely different situation and a comparison is not fair. Secondly Iíve heard this sued by the other side - the US killed civvies by the million, we consider ourselves at war with the US, Israel kills civvies, whatís the fuss.

The US has a history of double standards. Remember a few years ago when in Russia *Muslim* Chechen rebels kept taking down flat blocks and 600 people per time. The US later turned round and condemned the Invasion of Chechnya. Gee change a few words and that looks rather similar to something that happened recentlyÖ.
Going to reply to the rest of my post?

To summerise the last post a little, if loving the ideals your country is based on makes you a patriot, a true patriot would hate your currant government, not doing this to some degree would be backing up juju's point perfectly.


dave  Thursday Oct 25 09:01 AM

have to go to work, but i'll respond to one point quickly...

Quote:
Yea. *US* lives were saved, million odd evil jap civvies were killed but what the heck.
I hear this shit spouted off all the time. Where did you get that fucking number? Did you pull it out of your ass or what?

Try ~100,000 next time, which is an order of magnitude LESS than what you stated.

As for it just saving US lives... HOLY SHIT JAGUAR. PLEASE go read a fucking book about WHAT THE GROUND WAR WOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE. It is KNOWN that many of the Japanese would have FOUGHT WITH SPOONS AND ROCKS until they were OBLITERATED. Estimated death toll of a ground invasion was in the 1.5 million number on the Japanese side and it wasn't too great for us either. Are you aware that on Okinawa, when we took the island and were telling Japanese citizens that it was okay, we weren't going to hurt them... they were taking their families and jumping off cliffs? This was the kind of shit we were trying to AVOID by showing the Emperor that war wasn't a GOOD IDEA. It's a good damn thing that he bought it, too.


russotto  Thursday Oct 25 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar


Ok, so you bomb the shit out of Afghanistan. Kill bin laden, maybe a few of his top cronies if youíre lucky too. Wait 5 years and the next leader gets to add the bombing to his list of pretty reasonably grievances (and like griff I agree with the motives, not the methods). It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.

Even if I accept this scenario (and I don't; it would only result from doing a half-assed job), that's 5 years of attacks prevented. Not so bad. And since these assholes are going to have grievances which will be accepted by their fellow fanatics whether reasonable or not, one more isn't going to make a difference.

Just what do you expect the US to do? This isn't like the Pan Am bombing where the US could afford to let the attackers hole up in Libya for a decade or so -- these guys aren't just guilty of a far larger crime, they are still actively running their organization. Last minute offers to send Osama to some neutral country of the Taliban's choosing are pretty clear phony delaying tactics; of course the US will pay no attention to them.

If you want to solve the issue, there's two ways to go about it. One is to destroy Al-Queda and any other organization involved in terrorism. This means destroying all their fixed assets (hence Afghanistan), killing or imprisoning anyone with a position of power within the organization, infiltrating or destroying all their means of comunication, confiscating or destroying their movable assets, etc. The other is total isolationism. Not just withdrawing our military from everywhere around the world, but no longer exporting US culture -- no more McDonalds and Coke overseas. No more American movies or TV or music exported. We just withdraw into our shell and give the Islamic fundamantalists nothing to hate; we become a big zero in the world. The terrorists would call this a victory, of course -- and they'd be right.

Quote:

Policies of appeasement have had some spectacular failures *coughww2cough* but people don't kill themselves without a good reason.
People kill themselves without a good reason all the time. Policies of appeasment have had spectacular failures (not just WWII -- there's an old expression, "Once you've paid the Danegeld, you'll never be rid of the Dane"). Have they had ANY successes?


dave  Thursday Oct 25 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
If you think he'd get a fairer or more fair trial in a US court than the Hague....
Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

I don't think he's going to get a fair trial anywhere. I think that's even what I said before. You know what? Our government knows this. Any trial, anywhere, would be a farce. He's not coming back here alive, buddy. When US commandos find him, if he's still alive (hasn't committed suicide), he will be shot, a picture or two will be taken for proof, and that'll be it. A trial would incite more anger anyway - we're trying to avoid that as much as possible. He'll get toasted the moment he pops his head out. That'll be that.

Quote:
It does. Not. Solve. The. Issue.
I. Know. This. So. Do. Most. Of. The. Citizens. Of. My. Country. I. Am. Going. To. Stop. The. Dramatic. Pausing. Now.

The fact of the matter is, operations need MONEY and GUIDANCE to work. Especially ones on the scale of the 9/11 attacks. IF YOU DISMANTLE THEIR BASE OF POWER, IT WILL BE INFINITELY MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO OPERATE. THAT is the goal. Not totally by bombing "the shit out of Afghanistan" either. Targeted ground operations. There isn't much more precise than an H&K pistol being pressed against the back of someone's head. That is how they will go down. We may get lucky and hit 'em with a bomb, but I don't think that's the plan. Anyway, the fact of the matter is that bin Laden has the cash and the know-how to TRAIN people to KILL INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Will others rise in his place? Absolutely. Will we /neutralize/ them as well? Yes. There's a saying... "All Indians. No Chiefs." That's what it's like over there... one guy steps up 'cause he's pretty sharp and he's got a ton of money. And people flock to him to ease their suffering 'cause they think that's what's going to happen if they "martyr" themselves for Allah. All it takes is a LEADER and these people will follow. If you consistently KILL their terrorist leaders, you consistently take away their ability to operate effectively. That is the goal.

Quote:
if loving the ideals your country is based on makes you a patriot, a true patriot would hate your currant government, not doing this to some degree would be backing up juju's point perfectly.
No. A true patriot would say "without this government, we cannot possibly live with the freedom which we are guaranteed." Like I SAID before, the government is NOT PERFECT. But one has to tolerate its indiscretions because having it in place guarantees that our lives continue with our basic freedoms.

Maybe you have to live here to understand. This is one of the things that constantly amazes me about you - you're perfectly willing to sit back and toss out armchair speculation about things you have nearly NO CLUE about. Do you see me talking about Australia like I'm some fucking expert? No. Why? Because I've never lived there and I don't know shit about what it is to be an Australian. Yet you seem to have the United States all figured out from half way around the world. Do you live here? Did you vote in our last election? Do you understand what it is to live in a country that was FOUNDED on a few basic freedoms that CANNOT be taken away; to understand that in 1776, against OVERWHELMING ODDS, MEN FOUGHT AND DIED so that juju and Tony and tw and I could sit here and express our stupid opinions without fearing that someone would kill us for it. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what our freedom has bought for the rest of the world? If the United States didn't set the example, where do you think Australia would be right now?

I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. I'm pretty fucking tired of people stating the most ludicrous things and not bothering to offer any evidence. I'm done.

Tony - what about that UT server? We oughta talk some time too - if you's gots the facilities, do you do colocation? I could pay you, and you wouldn't have to administer the box


Undertoad  Thursday Oct 25 11:02 AM

Well what happened was that my spare box up n died. Remember me asking a few days back - what's it mean when your IDE activity light goes on and stays on? That was the box intended to act as the server! Grumble grumble.

I do colocation, the ultimate in mom & pop colo where new boxes sit on the floor right next to where the dogs gather by my feet. Well, unless a new box ever comes in that's rack-mountable.

But... you mentioned payment?



juju2112  Thursday Oct 25 11:28 AM

<br>
Note to self: avoid future war debates with dhamsaic, otherwise HE MIGHT START TALKING LIKE THIS!. *ahem*. okay..it's like a new years resolution, or something. Only it's in October.
<br>
<br>



dave  Thursday Oct 25 01:26 PM

Tony -

email me. saic@hamda.com - i think you can figure out how that needs to be switched, considering i work at saic. i'd give you my personal address, but my server in mississippi got killed by the backbone provider that the isp uses (and where the box is) because scott put the goddamn rh72 iso on there and two of his friends were downloading it from oc3's... eating up some 95% of the t1... i spanked him very hard and told him never to put big files on there again but yeah... we'll talk about what i'm looking for and what i can pay...

Juju -

sometimes emphasis just has to be added.



elSicomoro  Friday Oct 26 01:35 AM

Hmmm...

This one looks like fun...

dham: Your emotions are understandable, but the emotions as a whole in this crisis are what will break us or make us stand tall as a nation.

I don't think taking out the base in Afghanistan is going to necessarily relieve the problem. al-Qaeda is set up in what? 65 countries? It's going to take more than going into Afghanistan to stop al-Qaeda. We're seeing progress in the arrests made, particularly Germany. But when you have others beyond bin Laden that are funneling money into this organization, then you have a whole other issue. The easiest solutions seem to be pulling out of Saudi Arabia and withdrawing support for Israel. The former is possible, but the latter will NEVER happen. And even if we did that, I'm sure there would still be someone out there with a beef against the United States. This is just one organization...there are so many more out there. Hell, for all we know, the British could renew emotions about losing us 225 years ago...

Jag: You HAVE been slagging on the States an awful lot lately. Granted, the US DOES f**k up. But at the same, we DO help other nations. I don't know if it's measurable, but I'd say in the end, there's been more good than harm. Jesus Christ, we're not necessarily the world's punching bag. The blood is not just on one person's hands. Germany probably could have taken all of Europe during WW1 if not for the US. Besides, our head of state is not a Queen here (ceremonial or not). Let up a bit, will ya?

The estimated number of Japanese civilians killed in the atomic bombs is about 250,000. They were absolutely horrible...but I don't blame the US for using them one bit. It was wartime.

I worry about one of my reps at work. His father works for an American company at their Jakarta offices. His father and mother have not been able to leave their apartment in the past few weeks. In the event that things go absolutely nuts, they have plans to flee. I can't imagine a society where I would have to live in true fear such as that.



eggplantpasta  Friday Oct 26 03:57 AM

Re: Re: color me corrected

Quote:
Originally posted by MaggieL


I guess we need to remeber these folks don't even know the roman alphabet. It dos highlight that the demonstrations are staged for the consumption of western media though.
They do use the roman alphabet in Indonesia actually. Also in Malasia and Singapore. The sashes could be group or political identification?


MaggieL  Friday Oct 26 11:09 AM

Re: Re: Re: color me corrected

Quote:
Originally posted by eggplantpasta


They do use the roman alphabet in Indonesia actually. Also in Malasia and Singapore. The sashes could be group or political identification?
OK, color *me* corrected too. :-) I stand informed. Reinformed. Unmisinformed. Or something.


jaguar  Saturday Oct 27 05:59 AM

Iím currently wearing my new favorite t-shit *don't fuck with me or ill saw off your legs* courtesy of Unamerican

*rubs hands with glee as he pulls out a verbal chainsaw*
Oh good this is going to be fun.
Ill answer all in one long winding post.

First of all on the issue of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. Death toll quotes form an Old New Yorker magazine came to a total of around 200,000. Ok that figure was bullshit and the example was flawed. At the same time it can be totally removed from the equation, yes it world have been very messy, but it did stop them a ground war would have been worse you are correct. Pardon me on that. At the same time it is worthless for this because if you think nuking Afghanistan is going to stop these people you got another thing coming. Sure could nuke Afghanistan/Pakistan/Uzbekistan/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Indonesia/Sudan etc and take out about a quarter of the worlds population you might solve it, a bit but if your advocating that I think you should <censored>. ON otp of that you better nuke all teh 65 countries that have al-queda cells, including the US and most of Europe. Ever heard of the expression 'Burning down your house to kill a mouse'?


Now, on with the show.


Quote:
Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.
I never said he would, its matter of degrees, not absolutes.

Quote:
I. Know. This. So. Do. Most. Of. The. Citizens. Of. My. Country. I. Am. Going. To. Stop. The. Dramatic. Pausing. Now.
OK then JUST stop TALKING in CAPITALs is that OK??????

Quote:
Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.
'Nuff said me thinks.

Quote:
There's a saying... "All Indians. No Chiefs." That's what it's like over there... one guy steps up 'cause he's pretty sharp and he's got a ton of money. And people flock to him to ease their suffering 'cause they think that's what's going to happen if they "martyr" themselves for Allah. All it takes is a LEADER and these people will follow. If you consistently KILL their terrorist leaders, you consistently take away their ability to operate effectively. That is the goal.
You know there is only one truly great line that Iíve heard in a game and that is from Deus Ex (level 1 boss to be accurate)

"you cannot fight ideas with bullets"

Israel has been killing terrorist leaders for decades, done fuck all good. You don't seem to understand that while VALID GRIVBENCES exist (troops in Saudi and Support for a very Xenophobia Israel) people will be pissed. Leaders are irrelevant in the big picture. (I gotta watch this Marxist stuff


Quote:
Maybe you have to live here to understand. This is one of the things that constantly amaze me about you - you're perfectly willing to sit back and toss out armchair speculation about things you have nearly NO CLUE about. Do you see me talking about Australia like I'm some fucking expert? No. Why? Because I've never lived there and I don't know shit about what it is to be an Australian. Yet you seem to have the United States all figured out from half way around the world. Do you live here? Did you vote in our last election? Do you understand what it is to live in a country that was FOUNDED on a few basic freedoms that CANNOT be taken away; to understand that in 1776, against OVERWHELMING ODDS, MEN FOUGHT AND DIED so that juju and Tony and tw and I could sit here and express our stupid opinions without fearing that someone would kill us for it. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what our freedom has bought for the rest of the world? If the United States didn't set the example, where do you think Australia would be right now?
Fark man you just don't get it. Those ideals, those freedoms ARE IN DANGER OF BEING TAKEN AWAY BY YOUR FUCKING GOVERMENT!!!
DMCA, SSSCA, Anti-terror bil. Corperate money is going to snuff out the stuff you hold so dear. You government blocked a bill designed to stop exploitation of tax-havens? Why? Coz of over 300k given within about a week by Financial groups. *sighs* McCainís campaign finance reform bill needed to be passed, maybe a stronger form would be good too. Sadly it wonít happen.
Wake up and smell the coffee!!! There are allot of people with allot of money that think that the stupid little constitution is getting in their way of getting alto more money and they are buying your fucking government to shit all over it. Look I think those things are fantastic too, thatís why Iím so fucking pissed off geeez.

Quote:
I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. I'm pretty fucking tired of people stating the most ludicrous things and not bothering to offer any evidence. I'm done.
What evidence do you want? That the Anti-terror bill impinges on your fundamental freedoms? Not hard. Point out where Iím talking out my ass (except for the 1 million figure, I do apologise for that) and ill back it up.

Iím no fucking expert but i read, think and debate allot, i know what i know. I know the SSCA will cripple free software, I know that the Anti-terror bill will weaken the US constitution, I know that these things are not internal US issues, they have GLOBAL impact. No I didn't vote in your last election, not that it would have made a difference whether I did or not the Supreme Court decided that one. I also don't see how that has any impact on this discussion, I still have a personal interest in what the US government is going, because they are the most powerful one on earth.

On to rusotto

Quote:
Even if I accept this scenario (and I don't; it would only result from doing a half-assed job), that's 5 years of attacks prevented. Not so bad. And since these assholes are going to have grievances which will be accepted by their fellow fanatics whether reasonable or not, one more isn't going to make a difference.
You think you can kill every single terrorist in the Middle East? You really think that? 5 years of attacks stopped? Well considering the anthrax is still flowing severe bombing of Afghanistan and capturing all those people doesnít seemed to have much impact. Trying to stop terrorism with pure force is like trying to kill bamboo, you can kill it everywhere it comes up but its still there (as i'm discovering in the front garder at the moment), under the ground, waiting. You cannot fight ideas with bullets.


Quote:
If you want to solve the issue, there's two ways to go about it. One is to destroy Al-Queda and any other organization involved in terrorism. This means destroying all their fixed assets (hence Afghanistan), killing or imprisoning anyone with a position of power within the organization, infiltrating or destroying all their means of communication, confiscating or destroying their movable assets, etc. The other is total isolationism
How about solving the issues that give this cause popular support. Troops in Saudi Arabia and support of an Israel that is doing nothing to create peace???? There are also economic and cultural issue but these two alone I think would remove a lot of support. People over there just nwat to get on with their lives for crying out loud without being bombed/beaten up/shot. I have a friend in Isreal who knows Palstinians, most just want to live out their lives without being in constant fear of being shot.

Quote:
People kill themselves without a good reason all the time.
Maybe not valid reasons to you but Iím sure they are to those people. In he case of suicide bombers they clearly think what they are doing is worth sacrificing their lives for.

The key as I see it is to remove the popular support, extremism needs it to really do that much.

Syc: The stuff the US is based on is fantastic, I think the US has done some great stuff. Aid to other countries is a delicate issue, it would be cynical but Iíd say much of it has ulterior motives. I like the stuff the US is based on, Jefferson said himself ďI hope we snuff at berth of monied corporationsĒ I bet heís spinning in his grave about what their creation has become.

Whoever is the biggest is always going to be in the spotlight and a rallying point for a common enemy. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. At the same time there is a limit to everything, itís not the US I hate. Itís who have exploited its freedoms, namely corporations.

juju: I think you have been proven to be totally correct =)

PPTs(post-posting thoughts):
Argh my posts are getting as long as tws!
I know i've antoganised a few people here, i hope this clears things up a bit. I guess there is laot fo truth in the saying that money is the root of all evil, coz there sure is alot of it washing around congress, personally i think this is a very bad thing (see my thread in politics for more rambelings about this)

That Jefferson quote might be slightly off on the wording ,gotta check.



jaguar  Monday Oct 29 10:06 PM

Nothing to say dham?
All getting a bit hard is it? and here i was thinking you were made of sterner stuff, bah that was a waste of half an hour. Could have been playing diablo 2..



russotto  Tuesday Oct 30 01:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar

You know there is only one truly great line that Iíve heard in a game and that is from Deus Ex (level 1 boss to be accurate)

"you cannot fight ideas with bullets"

Israel has been killing terrorist leaders for decades, done fuck all good. You don't seem to understand that while VALID GRIVBENCES exist (troops in Saudi and Support for a very Xenophobia Israel) people will be pissed. Leaders are irrelevant in the big picture. (I gotta watch this Marxist stuff

Doesn't matter if people are pissed; people are going to be pissed either way. There is no manner in which the United States can act, including total isolationism, which will not piss someone off.

What matters is what they can do about it. And that is something bullets can affect.

Israel doesn't have free reign to go after the terrorist organizations in their host countries. The United States

Quote:

Fark man you just don't get it. Those ideals, those freedoms ARE IN DANGER OF BEING TAKEN AWAY BY YOUR FUCKING GOVERMENT!!!
DMCA, SSSCA, Anti-terror bil. Corperate money is going to snuff out the stuff you hold so dear.
Don't tell _me_ I don't get it. I've run smack into the DMCA; I know what it does. (and no, I can't give details; that's the problem with the DMCA...). I know there's still a chance it can get struck down, too. The SSSCA is dead for now. The anti-terror bill is a nasty and ugly thing, but it certainly has nothing to do with "corporate money".

Quote:

You government blocked a bill designed to stop exploitation of tax-havens? Why? Coz of over 300k given within about a week by Financial groups. *sighs*
So where's the problem? I like tax havens. The bills I've seen to stop their use are all quite ugly themselves.

Quote:

McCainís campaign finance reform bill needed to be passed, maybe a stronger form would be good too. Sadly it wonít happen.
Any campaign finance reform bill which passes will simply strengthen the power of the incumbents.

Quote:

Wake up and smell the coffee!!! There are allot of people with allot of money that think that the stupid little constitution is getting in their way of getting alto more money and they are buying your fucking government to shit all over it. Look I think those things are fantastic too, thatís why Iím so fucking pissed off geeez.
They're buying YOUR government too. And Europe.

But what any of this has to do with Osama bin Laden, I don't know. The United States could be a totalitarian dictatorship, and destroying a terrorist organization which attacked the country would STILL be justified.

Quote:

You think you can kill every single terrorist in the Middle East? You really think that? 5 years of attacks stopped? Well considering the anthrax is still flowing severe bombing of Afghanistan and capturing all those people doesnít seemed to have much impact. Trying to stop terrorism with pure force is like trying to kill bamboo, you can kill it everywhere it comes up but its still there (as i'm discovering in the front garder at the moment), under the ground, waiting. You cannot fight ideas with bullets.
Don't have to kill every single terrorist in the Middle East. Just destroy the organizations, so the remaining terrorists don't have the money or co-ordination to carry out really big attacks. Where the WTC is really big and the anthrax thing isn't.

Quote:

How about solving the issues that give this cause popular support. Troops in Saudi Arabia and support of an Israel that is doing nothing to create peace????
I see. We should give in to the terrorists. Yeah, that'll help. So we pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and withdraw support for Israel. I see two likely scenarios resulting from that:

1) Iraq and Syria achieve serious territorial expansion.
2) Israel gets pushed to the wall and goes nuclear.

Quote:

There are also economic and cultural issue but these two alone I think would remove a lot of support. People over there just nwat to get on with their lives for crying out loud without being bombed/beaten up/shot. I have a friend in Isreal who knows Palstinians, most just want to live out their lives without being in constant fear of being shot.
Sure. But a whole bunch of them seem to want to kill Israelis at any cost. And THOSE are the ones you have to worry about.


jaguar  Tuesday Oct 30 05:21 AM

ill jsut quickly go though a few things before changing tack

Quote:
Israel doesn't have free reign to go after the terrorist organizations in their host countries. The United States
Most of them are in Palastine and surrounding areas, they've bene killing, successfully leaders recently fr months, 'copter attacks and the like. It has has little or no impact. Its like that greek/roman goddess with the smake hair thing, cut off one another regrows.



Quote:
Don't tell _me_ I don't get it. I've run smack into the DMCA; I know what it does. (and no, I can't give details; that's the problem with the DMCA...). I know there's still a chance it can get struck down, too. The SSSCA is dead for now. The anti-terror bill is a nasty and ugly thing, but it certainly has nothing to do with "corporate money".
was merely pointing out that the govt is passing laws that undermine the constitution.


Quote:
So where's the problem? I like tax havens. The bills I've seen to stop their use are all quite ugly themselves.
Tax haven's have/are beign used by evilevil terrorist types to move money secretlywhich is why there is now a real effort to pass thsoe bills.

Quote:
They're buying YOUR government too. And Europe.
I know, but europe is nowhere as bad.

Quote:
But what any of this has to do with Osama bin Laden, I don't know. The United States could be a totalitarian dictatorship, and destroying a terrorist organization which attacked the country would STILL be justified.
True, that was (and the rest of that bit and other bits) baout patriotism now about terrorist attacks.

Quote:
Don't have to kill every single terrorist in the Middle East. Just destroy the organizations, so the remaining terrorists don't have the money or co-ordination to carry out really big attacks. Where the WTC is really big and the anthrax thing isn't.
And oyu really think that is possible? Really? Every cell, every million? Estimated half a mil to the the WTC bombing, taht ain't much really.

Quote:
Sure. But a whole bunch of them seem to want to kill Israelis at any cost. And THOSE are the ones you have to worry about.
Sure, but if you remove the majority of support, you remvoe the majority of their operating capacity without shooting anyone, great eh? This is the crux of the issue, instead of shooting/bombing everyone, try dealing wiht the issues.


Quote:
I see. We should give in to the terrorists. Yeah, that'll help. So we pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia, and withdraw support for Israel. I see two likely scenarios resulting from that:
Saudi troops are the biggest cause of tension here, heathens in thier holy land, really i cannot blame them. Its like an evengalical christian setting up camp in my room, i'd want the fucker out too.

I meant push Isreal towards peace, not withdraw support, my bad on the wording.

Now....

ah crap ill continue this later (dinner)


dave  Tuesday Oct 30 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
Nothing to say dham?
All getting a bit hard is it? and here i was thinking you were made of sterner stuff, bah that was a waste of half an hour. Could have been playing diablo 2..
Quote:
Originally posted by myself, dhamsaic
I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. (...) I'm done.
I think that should have summed up my conversational status regarding this topic...

Go back to your cave, troll...


russotto  Tuesday Oct 30 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
ill jsut quickly go though a few things before changing tack

Most of them are in Palastine and surrounding areas, they've bene killing, successfully leaders recently fr months, 'copter attacks and the like. It has has little or no impact. Its like that greek/roman goddess with the smake hair thing, cut off one another regrows.
You're mixing up the Gorgons (of which Medusa was the most famous) and the Hydra. Cut the head off the Hydra, several more grow in its place. But that doesn't mean cutting the heads off isn't how to kill the Hydra -- Hercules killed it by cutting off the heads and having Aeolus cauterize the stumps.

And in any case, many of the leaders aren't in the West Bank or Gaza or anywhere Israel can operate fairly freely. Many are in Syria (Islamic Jihad, for instance). And obviously some are in Afghanistan.

Quote:

Tax haven's have/are beign used by evilevil terrorist types to move money secretlywhich is why there is now a real effort to pass thsoe bills.
There's efforts to pass them now because they think they can use terrorism as an excuse. But the government just hates tax havens on principle.

Quote:

I know, but europe is nowhere as bad.
(referring to the DMCA)
Actually, Europe is every bit as bad, only a few years behind. The European Union central committee has ordered all members to pass a law slightly worse than the DMCA by December 2002.
Australia has already passed a DMCA equivalent.

Quote:

And oyu really think that is possible? Really? Every cell, every million? Estimated half a mil to the the WTC bombing, taht ain't much really.
You don't have to destroy every cell. Just destroy a large part of the organization. A cell structure is good for preventing a narc or turncoat from taking down the whole organization. It's not so good at remaking destroyed connections -- because limited connections is how the cell system prevents betrayals from being fatal.

Further, there are still the fixed assets -- the so called 'terrorist training camps'. Destroy those, and building new cells becomes much more difficult.

Quote:

Sure, but if you remove the majority of support, you remvoe the majority of their operating capacity without shooting anyone, great eh? This is the crux of the issue, instead of shooting/bombing everyone, try dealing wiht the issues.
The crux of the issue is that you believe that at the root of the terrorism problem is a bunch of legitimate grievances against the United States.

Quote:

Saudi troops are the biggest cause of tension here, heathens in thier holy land, really i cannot blame them. Its like an evengalical christian setting up camp in my room, i'd want the fucker out too.
Troops in Saudi Arabia are bin Laden's pet peeve, but Israel issues are far more important, IMO. There was plenty of terrorism before the US put troops in Saudi Arabia.

Quote:

I meant push Isreal towards peace, not withdraw support, my bad on the wording.
Every time Israel moves towards peace, someone shoots up or blows up a few more Israelis. Of course, if they don't move towards peace, someone does it anyway. You can't make peace when the representatives of the warring factions aren't available for discussion, and that is the case there. Even if Israel were to make peace with Arafat, give him half of Jeruselam, the West Bank, whatever, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah and all the other terrorist organizations would still be blowing things up. As would likely parts of the PLO (even assuming Arafat himself keeps his end of the deal). It'd be a land-for-nothing deal.


Whit  Tuesday Oct 30 05:32 PM

I just wanted to commend Russotto on both having well-thought responses as well as tolerance. Alot of pure noise has been made in this and similar strings and most of us have gotten burnt out. Way to hang in there.

By the by, Jag. I'll give you credit for being the only person that I've read that posted against bombing that had ANY suggestion of an slternate action.

I don't think it'll work though. IMO Bin Laden and his ilk can not be reasoned with as they are not sane. They choose to focus attacks on civilians as an act of hatred. Attacking civilian targets to get what you want doesn't have a success record. They know this and don't care. They hate us and that alone is enough reason to kill us.



jaguar  Tuesday Oct 30 05:35 PM

Quote:
There's efforts to pass them now because they think they can use terrorism as an excuse. But the government just hates tax havens on principle.
Most of the powerful anit-sentiment has been from people inside the administration - they ahve millions stored there.



Quote:
Actually, Europe is every bit as bad, only a few years behind. The European Union central committee has ordered all members to pass a law slightly worse than the DMCA by December 2002.
a: I'm well aware Australia will do anyhting the US does blindly. Europe blocked the GE-Honeywell merger. Europe has blocked various highly questionalble GE trials the US let though wihtout a second thought. Eurpoe has pased laws to strengthen and garantee the future of online privicy. Not perfect, but better.


Quote:
The crux of the issue is that you believe that at the root of the terrorism problem is a bunch of legitimate grievances against the United States.
And waht do you think the casue is? A bunch of complete nutters that have the suport of most of the middle east for no good reason?

Continuing on from where i left off last night.....

After going though this very thoughly with a few people the general consensus is that
a: there re two paths the US can take ,force or appeasement.
b: its irrelavent which is taken, they both have the same end.
THe key issues are loss of cultural identity in a globalised society, the nature of islam and socioeconomic differences. UNtil these issues are solved there won't be a stop to this problem. Brace yourselves for 20-50 years of living a bit like Isreal, siege.

Theoretically eventully either Islm will comes to terms iwth hte new world orde or die out, and economic diference will be smaller, if not equal. Its a very long-term macro view of it, but its hard to argue again't.

Quote:
Troops in Saudi Arabia are bin Laden's pet peeve, but Israel issues are far more important, IMO. There was plenty of terrorism before the US put troops in Saudi Arabia.
I'd say both are. As you said yourself its not about removing every terrorist though any menas, that impossible, its about removing the majority. Most Palatinians i'm sure would be happy with a state, and if that was then endangered by these grousp these groups would not be so popular.


dhamsaic aww poor baby.


Quote:
Every time Israel moves towards peace, someone shoots up or blows up a few more Israelis.
Same in Northern Ireland, gotta tkae the good with the bad and work though it, not bow to the terrorists as you alwasy accuse me of doing right? Not retaliate by kill a few yourself, its a self-destructive short term policy that will cost more Isreeli and Palastinian lives in the long term.

Quote:
You don't have to destroy every cell. Just destroy a large part of the organization. A cell structure is good for preventing a narc or turncoat from taking down the whole organization. It's not so good at remaking destroyed connections -- because limited connections is how the cell system prevents betrayals from being fatal.
Even that is not easy, moving money around is not hard, and can be done far faster than authorities can respond. THe sheer sclae of international travel, international money moving and the relative lack of transparancy makes it very easy for peopel and monentry assets to move around. I mean fuck a ew of thsoe terrorists on that plane were known ot the FBI and wern't even being watched, i'm sure thats changed but...


dave  Tuesday Oct 30 06:17 PM

jaguar:

I don't mean to stoop to your level of being personal in this discussion, but let me be frank: you have some serious growing up to do as a person.

It's humorous that you judge me a "poor baby" who can't participate in this discussion because it's "getting a bit too hard" and because I'm not "made of sterner stuff", then noting, in the same post, that you wasted a half an hour writing that. I suppose it never occurs to you that I work 45-50 hours a week, support my girlfriend and myself, have a mother with Multiple Sclerosis that I try and visit as frequently as possible (nevermind that she's an hour away, which means two hours of driving just to see her, plus the time I spend there), plus have to find time to sleep and eat on top of that - I don't have a half hour every day to respond to you. We won't even get deep into the fact that I have three houses that I'm working on fixing so I can rent them and maybe afford to pay the mortgages (2 are an hour away and 1 is 3.5 hours west) and a constant battle with the nursing home my mother stays in over the fact that a) she can't pay her bill and b) she has another bedsore. Holy shit, jag, I'm sorry that I don't want, to quote Al Pacino here, waste my mother fucking time on you and your drivel. I would gladly write all fucking day if I thought you would actually hear it; instead, the only subject whose validity you acknowledge is the fact that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs didn't kill "some million people".

I wish I felt confident that you could, as a person, respect the fact that others have far more important things to do than spend their day responding to a stubborn anti-American zealot. So pardon me if I don't respond to your mindless posts. I've not got the time to waste.



jaguar  Tuesday Oct 30 08:56 PM

dham: Soz that was a bit harsh, heck in a nasty mood today - exams start tomorrow. Obviously I didn't realise all the personal stuff, sorry for that. still ,time is not in the end the issue. I'm not gonna try and argue back that I don't have exactly a ton of time myself (heck half the time Iím posting at 1-2am here just after I finish homework before I go to bed or during/between classes) because a: that would be very callous b: Stupid, I don't have allot of time myself but its not that bad. Yet - not looking forward to next year. My point is simply rather than packing up and wandering off why not remove a little of the emotion and debate it out, see if you can win, heck its all for fun. russotto is doing a damn good job, certainly got me ducking and weaving, why not get back into it?
Stubborn anti-American troll is a bit over the top.. For a start Iím not trolling Iím trying to have an intelligent debate. Sorry for not immediately repenting my sins and totally agreeing with you when his lordship himself speaks but that is the nature of a debate where you use logical and coherent argument not emotion to bring the other person round to your point of view. If i was really arrogant i'd quote ya sig.

Rusotto ill agree whatever the US or any other organisation/goverment/company does they are going to piss someone off its a matter of how many and how pissed. At the moment its many millions in one area who are unbelievably pissed. Even an entity with the inertia of the US can try and do something about that.

Whit: you must've been writing as I was, literally becuase when i started posting it wasen't there.
In the end there is little choice to be mad, clearly there is a large call for blood, which cannot be ignored by the administration, and something has to be done in the short term to stop further attacks Iím sure we all agree. It is the nature of retaliation that is the short term issue and solving the issues the long term one.

Can we agree on that last sentence? =)



Whit  Wednesday Oct 31 01:45 AM

I do agree with that last sentance. I also think the bombing goes farther than simple retaliation though. I think there is a sincere attempt to take out the terrorist orginazation that trains as well as funds these attacks. It's the very thing you mentioned a sentance earlier a short term solution. I think it's aimed a crippling the more immediate attacks that we all (at least amongst the people I talk to) expected. It should be noted that alot of people, myself included, thought Al-Queda and related orginazations would have struck back by now with something much more effective than the anthrax campaign has been. Maybe this is a sign of success, maybe not. At least it's a directed action with a chance of success, which beats letting these bastards think they can act with complete disregard for how we will respond.

On the long term I expcet things to only get worse. I, in my daily life, hear alot more talk of getting away from the use of mid-east oil. I'm taking advantage by pushing my belief that we need to develop alternate resources. I think that as these are developed we will have more problems with these fanatics. The reason being that once we don't need the oil how are they going to make any money? Correct me if I'm wrong but alot of food is imported by various nations in the mid-east, how will they continue to pay for it? I do wish them well, but unless they start developing some effective public school systems that do something about the rate of illiteracy I don't have alot of hope that they will. Now, who do you think they will blame when noone will buy their oil and they can't afford food?

Hmm, here's hoping I'm just being cynical.



jaguar  Wednesday Oct 31 03:03 AM

You have a point...
Afghanistan is mostly funded though drugs-Herion to be exact, about 8Billion a year's worth. Arart from bio/chem attacks on the crops there is little you can do about those, the US declaered war on them years ago.

Would you agree with the idea that if one bomb is dropped for any reason other than a direct attack on terrorist archietecture its fucking stupid?

At the same time il continue with the line i took in the post before last, in the long term this is irrelavent, whether some attacks are stopped or not until the issues are solved the fact is this is not going to go away.


Quote:
but unless they start developing some effective public school systems that do something about the rate of illiteracy
Interesting you say that, in Pakistan the Extreme Islamic schools are the only free ones.

You seem to be advocating a policy of Isolation, shutting borders, removing dependence of forign oil that kinda thing? Where do you think that leads? (that is not meant as a rehtorical question)


russotto  Wednesday Oct 31 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jaguar
You have a point...

Would you agree with the idea that if one bomb is dropped for any reason other than a direct attack on terrorist archietecture its fucking stupid?

No, it is not. Bombs aimed at those protecting the terrorists -- i.e. the Taliban and their military organization -- are not wasted either. Just bombing the terrorist training camps and other fixed assets won't do a lot of good until you make sure they can't easily set up new ones.

Quote:

irrelavent, whether some attacks are stopped or not until the issues are solved the fact is this is not going to go away.
The issues are not going to be solved. There is no solution. There are multiple groups with mutually incompatible aims, all willing to do violence to anyone to achieve them.


jaguar  Wednesday Oct 31 04:21 PM

Well...
WE have:
Hamas
PLO
Hezbolah
Islamic Jihad
Al Queda

Off the top of my head
one 1 of thsoe have ever directly attacked the US or US assets.

In your mind, why do they exist? Why do people support them?



Whit  Wednesday Oct 31 05:40 PM

Actually I'm not advocationg isolationism. I'm all for dealing with people that don't burn our flags in the street. Heck I'm even willing to deal with that if they can just agree to disallow training camps whose express purpose is to develop the skills necessary to properly kill my family and friends.

I realize they may not be able to prevent it but I would expect a little good faith effort. I prefer countries that repay the money the US loans 'em too...

I didn't know that about the Pakinstan schools. Thanks for the info.

To answer your question I think they exist for the same reason as neo-nazi's, the original nazi's and dozens of other facist groups. They hate. It's easier to hate and blame someone else than it is to hate your own life.

We are mearly an easy target for their hatred. If we gave them everything they wanted they'd still hate us. And attack us.



dave  Wednesday Oct 31 06:31 PM

don't forget the PFLP either.

people support them because their leaders tell them to.

their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. they lose in the end. when you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. they seem to not recognize this. blind leading the blind. the funny thing is, i used to be totally completely sided with the palestinians. "oh, israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. i would never argue that israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. i personally think they have shown great restraint - i've not once heard of israeli soldiers grabbing some palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what i saw some palestinians doing to israeli soldiers last october 13.

re: the debate and emotions and all that stuff: first of all, the "flames" in signature refers to a love interest that spoiled and is taken from a faith no more song. has nothing to do with arguing, the cellar, etc. second, i think if you read back, my arguments are quite clear and are supported with evidence. emotion does play a part in my writing, but more in the sense that i try to stir it up - human beings feel, and they should. ask any of my friends - i'm known for being able to sit back, look at all sides of an argument, and come to my conclusion. and that's what i've done here. it's what i'll always do. my frustration stems from the fact that people tend to ///assume///, and, moreover, don't seem to read what i write to actually read it. it's basic human nature to, in an argument, listen or read to the other to formulate a response instead of actually hearing them out. i get that a lot. it seemed i was getting it here. and honestly, i have no interest participating in a discussion when someone doesn't treat my ideas with the same openness and respect that i treat theirs.

i also notice that you and i end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. i'm like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!" - i know, man. i know. i have my mirror of decss up. i've contributed money to the eff. and i'll continue to do so. when someone stops me at a store and says "i need to see your receipt", i say "sure, no problem. just go ahead and let me see your search warrant and i'll show you my receipt." i wrote my congressmen to show my distrust of recent "anti-terrorism" legislation (as well as the dmca, which, unfortunately, is active in the two states that i live, those being maryland and virginia).

the threat of terrorism is a big thing though. you have to understand - i have friends that are coming over to my house tonight to watch a movie instead of going to a halloween party for the express purpose that they're afraid they might get blown up. freedoms are the most wonderful things in this world, provided you have something to protect them with. forget, for a second, the civilian deaths which, no matter how horribly wrong, are nothing compared to the freedoms we enjoy. if the terrorists took down our government, how do we protect ourselves? have you ever seen "the godfather"? the government is a bit like don corleone - it does some pretty fucked up things at times, but without it, everything crumbles. think about where australia would be without the united states. our government has set the standard. nevermind the fact that other countries know that if they fuck with australia, they're in deep shit with the mightiest military in the world. forget ideals now - you could be DEAD. or a slave. let me be quite frank and disgusting here (those who are easily offended, skip to next sentence): imagine that, because the united states fell, some other country took over australia and you became a slave, you were forced to suck cock and have large erect penises pump in and out of your poorly lubricated asshole so that the money you earned doing your deed could go to your owner. i don't know about you, but that's not the kind of life i want to be living. i want that guarantee of freedom that only a government can truly provide. you can argue all you want that the dmca and sssca & usa act limit freedoms. you're right. but if we don't stand up for what is right by eliminating those that challenge it, we stand to lose it all. that is what the government is doing right now. they are sending a message - "we will do everything in our power to keep our freedom and our life from those that are threatening to take it from us."

i could write an entire book about this. i know this is an incomplete post, and i apologize. i really need to get going. i'll probably take some time over the weekend to write a better summary on what i feel is happening here, what i feel is at stake and what i feel should be done.

in the mean time, i'm out. please do me a favor before responding to whatever i write that you don't agree with - go away from your computer, sit down for 20 or 30 minutes and think about what you've read, think about my motivation for feeling how i feel and writing what i write, and then try and respond in a constructive manner. every argument i've had on the cellar or slashdot began with someone flying off the handle about something i said instead of responding constructively. it's all well and good that you disagree with me, but when someone (not you) starts out responding with "the lack of forethought in this statement astounds me", i know that they're not looking for intelligent conversation. if they were, they'd be making it or helping me with constructive arguments instead of tossing derogatory remarks around. same way. if you want intelligent discussion, give me something intelligent and thoughtful to respond to instead of reciting anti-american propaganda you've been hearing, interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where. not that i'm saying you're guilty of this. but i do tend to get this a lot, and i'm just saying that it doesn't generally put me into a "well, this person has a valid view point" mood - or rather, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

i'll write later. this is going on way too long. i'll make sure to touch all the bases.



jaguar  Thursday Nov 1 02:32 AM

woohoo!
Great stuff.
Know what? I agree with you entirely.
That is why I stand where I stand. Which sometimes gets confused.
The price of freedom as so often stated (and had to in my English exam today urgh) is eternal vigilance. For all its flaws liberal democracy is a pretty good system (more accurately itís a bad system that beats everything else till you come up with something better) and I want to keep that. Thatís why Iím pissed off at the US, because money is undermining these principles.

Sure, we've got something pretty good but that doesn't mean we should go, gee well, this is pretty good and leave it at that. Letís keep aiming for something better and stop the rot setting in.

Thatís why I bitch allot. I'm not stupid enough to advocate something else like communism or benevolent dictatorship, Iím just saying this, this and THIS (he says pointing a big accusing
finger at the SSSCA) is wrong, and we should do something about them instead of rolling over. Enemies from within are as dangerous as those from without.

I know your sig was talking about something else - I just like twisting stuff to my advantage, force of habit after years of verbal sparring matches =)

The reason I laid into you was that to summaries allot of conversation:
juju said patriotism is bad because it makes people sheep
you fought back
I joined juju as he dropped out of it
I said if you were a true patriot (as in support the value it was founded on) you would hate your currant government for what it was doing
You retorted with something about people dieing to establish those values (interjected with allot of capitals) which merely served to reinforce my point before dropping out of the discussion. If you'd just said that you'd written to congressmen etc...

Now..


Quote:
their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. That, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. They lose in the end. When you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost. They seem to not recognize this. Blind leading the blind. The funny thing is, I used to be totally completely sided with the Palestinians. "oh, Israel is treating them awful. fuck israel." but the fact of the matter is that while israel is performing their "targeted killings" against what are basically the "military commanders" of the militant groups, palestinian extremists are picking weak, easy-target civilians and murdering them. they're sending suicide bombers into discos to kill "the enemy" - that enemy being comprised almost wholly of teenage girls. it is some seriously sick fucking shit. I would never argue that Israel is perfect - but they haven't thrown away their bargaining chips. I personally think they have shown great restraint - Iíve not once heard of Israeli soldiers grabbing some Palestinians, killing them, throwing their bodies out the window of a building and beating their corpses in the street - but this is what I saw some Palestinians doing to Israeli soldiers last October 13.
Firstly, Israel isnít anywhere as near as clean as you seem to think, often innocents are shot in firefights with Israeli soldiers shooting live rounds and during the recent takeover a few towns they went down the fronts of many major streets and completely ripped the fronts off them - simple revenge. If you go back into the last few decades itís been fucking messy on both sides, Sharon himself is a goddman butcher responsible for allot of Innocent deaths. Both sides have allot of blood on their hands.


Quote:
their leaders tell them to so they can increase their power. that, and because they don't understand that their violence only does them harm. They lose in the end. When you *target* civilians, all your bargaining chips are lost.
Debatable - suicide and merciless attacks do get one message across - DON'T FUCK WITH US. I don't advocate their tactics but their grievance is real - Israel should stop building more settlements in the west back and withdraw. Fully. They are exasperating a very open wound. Tit for tat on both sides in the really destructive thing. The issue is control of Jerusalem but don't as ask me how to answer that. Peace keeping force came to mind but...

Quote:
I also notice that you and I end up arguing apples and oranges - that bothers me. Iím like "yeah, we need to respond to the terrorist threat to preserve our freedoms" and you're like "dmca, bitch!"
There were/are two simultaneous arguments going on
a: Patriotism and B; terrorist response
I guess lines got crossed.

Quote:
interspersed with stuff you read on some web page some where
Rest is all okey-dokey but most of my ideas etc come from books. Try 1984, Brave New World, Communist Manifesto, various stuff on the French Revolution, Twain, and others combined with allot of debating, listening to all sorts of people, as well as personal experiences (patricianly time in Vietnam). Most of the political shit on WebPages is just hashed up versions of other stuff anyway. Heck when you get down to it its not easy to attack my basic political views, they've ben attacked and hacked down so often that there a pretty hard to hit target these days.

Onto the nature of the response, starting with Whit

Quote:
To answer your question I think they exist for the same reason as neo-Naziís, the original Naziís and dozens of other fascist groups they hate. It's easier to hate and blame someone else than it is to hate your own life.
Yes...Buy WHY do they hate?
Letís take the Nazis, between the wars there was awful economic conditions in Germany, the currency was worth, food was scarce at time - to summaries people had no money and no food. Socioeconomic conditions sum it up. Now, Iíd argue similar conditions exist in the Middle East. Germany felt like it had been shitted on by the treaty after WW1, Iíd say the Middle East feels the same about its treatment by the west. See what Iím getting at? We need to address those issues - and that is *not* easy before the problem will go away. Tha'ts what iv'e been argueing all along. But hat is along term issue of world-wide equality, a kind of global class-war.

Of course in the en i still blame religion, more blood on its hands than *any* government. Allot fo the stuff tw posted about emotion being needed by extremists to gain a foothold is entirely true (tips his hat in tw's direction)

One last thing: I keep hearing people go bah - anthrax letters is *that* the best they can do??/ Well gee,for buggar al expense and little risk they've scared the livingshit out of half the country, foreced shutdowns and the evacuation of congress. Pretty good effort if you ask me.


dave  Thursday Nov 1 09:58 AM

Israeli and Palestinian relations

Quote:
Firstly, Israel isnít anywhere as near as clean as you seem to think, often innocents are shot in firefights with Israeli soldiers shooting live rounds and during the recent takeover a few towns they went down the fronts of many major streets and completely ripped the fronts off them - simple revenge. If you go back into the last few decades itís been fucking messy on both sides, Sharon himself is a goddman butcher responsible for allot of Innocent deaths. Both sides have allot of blood on their hands.
Absolutely. I myself am not particularly familiar with Sharon causing innocent deaths decades ago or anything - not saying it didn't happen, but simply stating that I am ignorant of any such happenings.

However, like I was saying, Israel has shown huge restraint in their dealings with the Palestinians. I know that innocent civilians get killed on the Palestinian side, and it's no less awful that it would be if it were Israeli civilians or American civilians or Australian civilians or, yes, even Canadians (just kidding! I love Canada! No, really. Toronto rocks my socks off). But there's a big problem in the Palestinian reaction. I'm almost ashamed to admit how much time I've spent reading up on the Middle East affairs - it's probably in the thousands of hours. One exceptionally consistent thing I notice is that the Palestinian militants make a point of killing innocent civilians. It is their goal. That is a big difference, and it's reinforced by the fact that Israel, while in the process does happen to kill some civilians, specifically targets the leaders of militant organizations. It would be wholly different if Israel responded to suicide bombings by rounding up an equivalent number of innocent Palestinians and executing them. That's not what they do though. The funny thing is, Islamic justice is generally understood to be "an eye for an eye" - yet the Palestinian militants cry foul when a murderer like Mustafa Zibri is killed in a rocket attack. Or when Jamal Mansour, a head militant of Hamas, is killed in much the same manner. Or when "The Engineer", responsible for many many deaths by bombs (and, interestingly enough, the person who really started the suicide bomb trend, though they had existed before he put it to good use), was killed by a small explosive planted in his mobile phone. Islamic justice doesn't apply to them, of course.

Of course Israel isn't perfect. Iman Hiju didn't deserve to die, and it's an awful thing that she did. But I certainly understand Israel's defensive stance. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not safe to walk down the street there. Could you imagine living in that? The fear of a suicide bomber walking into the Sbarro's that you're in, or the discotheque you're hanging out at, or a fucking school for deaf children, and blowing themselves up? I would say that their desire to keep the Palestinians under control is pretty understandable - if they don't, many more of their civilians will die. And like I said before - the primary function of a government is to protect its citizens.

Unfortunately, this will probably never end until Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. That's what Hamas & Islamic Jihad & Hezbollah & PFLP & PLO & Syria & Lebanon & al Qaida want. It's what we in da bidness refer to as snafu - situation normal: all fucked up. or clusterfuck. take your pick.

Just as an parting thought: Israel was attacked in 1967, fought their attackers, won the West Bank, Sinai peninsula, Gaza Strip & Golan Heights in the fight. They later gave the Sinai back to Egypt. I personally don't see why they shouldn't build on that land - they won it after being attacked. To the victor go the spoils, you know?

Personally, I just wish that they'd all get along. They could co-exist peacefully - it's just a few people that are ruining it for everyone else.


jaguar  Thursday Nov 1 04:29 PM

Ture.
But. At its a big fat ugly one.
THe idea beinhd random attacks on civvies is what Bin Laden said to the US: "no american will live without fear until the people of Palastine do"
Its a dangerous method and its very easy to fall on your own sword but i can be highly effective. Don't get me wrong - its still an underhand, sometimes cowardly messy way of getting your point across.

Quote:
Unfortunately, this will probably never end until Israel is wiped off the face of the Earth. That's what Hamas & Islamic Jihad & Hezbollah & PFLP & PLO & Syria & Lebanon & al Qaida want. It's what we in da bidness refer to as snafu - situation normal: all fucked up. or clusterfuck. take your pick.
True but iwhtout popular support thsoe groups would be severly undermined if not totally ineffective, if there was peace in Palastineand Hamas threatened that Hamas would be fucked by the Palastinians.


dave  Thursday Nov 1 05:09 PM

Which goes back to my point of these people being poorly educated on the matters that affect them. Someone tells them that Israel is evil and they should blow themselves up and become a "martyr" - they go "oh, okay, Israel is evil, I'm gonna go kill some of those evil Israelis." Of course, if someone in power was preaching "hey, look, we can get along with the Israelis. They're just people too, like us. Maybe we should stop throwing rocks at them" it wouldn't be as much of a problem. I'm not blaming Arafat or anything, but he's not doing that. He's not taking a very harsh stand on terrorism because he seems to feel like they'll never get their independent state if they crack down hard on the terrorism and make a very strong and real effort for peace. He's afraid, and rightly so, that Israel is gonna kick their asses off the face of the planet if they show Israel that they're willing to lay down their arms. The problem is, that hasn't ever worked, and it won't. "All we are saying is give peace a chance." I wish. One of the serious issues, no matter what Arafat ever does, is that a few people in power think that Israel must be eradicated, no matter what. It's these people that control the violent minority. They are, quite literally, fighting the peace process. Hamas' website states that they oppose the 1993 peace accords and any effort of peace with Israel. They want a war.

Like I said, SNAFU.



jaguar  Thursday Nov 1 06:06 PM

Quote:
people being poorly educated
Why are they poorly educated?
As i isad before, the only free schools in Pakistan are extreme Islamic ones, there are large economic nad cultural issues that come overall of this.

As for peace in Isreal - i don't thik for now its possible. One of hte truest things i heard about Kosovo was that the only way to stop it happening again is to shoot all the grandmothers(before anyone calls me some kind of sicko think about what i'm implying *please*)



Quote:
It's these people that control the violent minority.
That has the spuurt fo the very angry majority, remove the majority and they become like any other timpot group - like the militas in the US - not a serious issue.

It is a matter of treating the cause - not the symptoms - terrorist is the symptom- socioecominic divied between east and west and an even larger cultural divide flared up further by culture-swallowing globalisation. (that btw is not representative of my opinion of globalisation thats a seperate thread alltogether)


Whit  Thursday Nov 1 07:44 PM

Damn, you guy's post alot... I guess that's what I get for being a guy that only uses computers for recreation. I just can't keep up.

Anyway, I agree completly that the problem is more socieconomic than anything else. Which leads to my point, no matter what we do they will hate us. These people have decided to blame us for their condition and there's fuck all we can do about it.

As for the Anthrax, in my daily life I don't know anyone who is doing anything different. Everything that didn't happen becuase one building or another was closed still got done. The only thing it's done is make some people sick and kill a very few. All the more reason to hunt the bastards down harder.

If this method has any negative effect on the US it's to make the common man more willing to see innocent blood shed. This is not what they want. The longer it goes the more right's will be trampled. Their methods are not only ineffective, but self-destructive. The US will only get more aggresive as it goes on.

That's an all-around bad situation.



jaguar  Friday Nov 2 01:41 AM

Quote:
Anyway, I agree completly that the problem is more socieconomic than anything else. Which leads to my point, no matter what we do they will hate us. These people have decided to blame us for their condition and there's fuck all we can do about it.
The issues are solveable, but in the long term. In the short term is can be alleviated by solving some of the microcosoms. Just withdrawing troops form Saudi would be a big push in the short-medium term.

In the long term while i don't think it'll happen the western world needs to entirely rethink its policy to the third world. THis is an issue that has been a long time in the making - continue tis later. At the same time there hsould be a crackdown on terrorism, but nothign else - only those directly responsible any more looks like revenge. The key is to send a very tailored message - fuck with us and we'll fuck you twice and your kid too. BUT not declare war on the entire muslim world. ie: Don't bomb ,surcical strikes based on solid intel only. Combined iwht serious long-term aid designed to have a serious impact on these nations economies.


Whit - 09% of schoolwork, graphics work, gaming - i spend 3-4 hours here a day during the week and 0-2 on the weekend.


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