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   Undertoad  Tuesday Sep 21 01:05 PM

9/21/2004: Hurricane Ivan damage



Collecting a few from Ivan last week, the most impressive damage was done to I-10, where it seems it was blown apart at the joints in the road.



Rampant unimaginable destruction: and a car in your pool.



A puppy gets rescued, yay!



And a last laugh.



tw  Tuesday Sep 21 01:12 PM

Rather interesting set of pictures from the Pensacola News Journal demonstrate what can happen to a bridge (bridges) when a 30 to 40 foot surge approaches. Apparently some trucker was on that Escambia Bay Bridge right in the heart of that hurricane. One who fear the wind itself would blow the truck off. From the pictures, it becomes obvious which way the waves came from and how (why) bridge sections failed.

http://tinyurl.com/5c43k



Elspode  Tuesday Sep 21 01:17 PM

Is this the highway that got blown up in "True Lies"?



BrianR  Tuesday Sep 21 02:53 PM

Yup



Guess  Tuesday Sep 21 05:03 PM

Wow
Those are incredible pictures.
Can any of you weather-smart people tell me the reason for all these hurricanes?? This is just crazy! Those poor Floridians.



mrputter  Tuesday Sep 21 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianR
Yup
Eh, if you're responding to Elspode, then I don't think so, actually.

This highway is the I10 over the Pensacola Bay in Escambia co (NW Florida, in the panhandle).

The one in True Lies was US highway 1 (the Overseas Highway) in the Florida Keys (specifically, Seven Mile Bridge, I think)...


ferkelparade  Tuesday Sep 21 07:56 PM

Holy...how crazy do you have to be to drive a truck over that highway in the middle of a hurricane?



Skunks  Tuesday Sep 21 07:58 PM

<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v63/enoch1024/GODvsBUSH.gif">

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../GODvsBUSH.gif -- from some IRC channel somewhere, I think. I claim absolutely no responsibility.)



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Sep 21 08:32 PM

Skunks, you're a sick puppy,.....I like that.



tw  Tuesday Sep 21 09:53 PM

Look closer at most damage. Demonstrated is that building can be built reasonably to withstand direct storm assaults. I believe it was ABC News that interviewed a man in front of his house. The house was built per code and suffered minimal damage. Adjacent homes, not built to code, no longer even exist.

Any home not plummeted by a surge of water should be intact. Look closely at pictures. Especially at the borders where a photographer was not concentrating. Often around completely destroyed buildings are buildings virtually intact. Unlike Homestead, it appears this region had numerous building codes enforced. IOW was the damage due to Ivan or was it due to human failure?

One thing that does not survive well in such winds are small boats. Their cleats for ropes typically are not strong enough to hold the boat in such winds. Or the surge was too high for mooring ropes that were too short. Notice the marina. Little damage to buildings. Probably every boat severely damaged or destroyed.



Cyber Wolf  Tuesday Sep 21 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guess
Wow
Those are incredible pictures.
Can any of you weather-smart people tell me the reason for all these hurricanes?? This is just crazy! Those poor Floridians.
Simply put, there've been a lot of storms coming off the west African coast that are moving into just the right latitudes that give them the spin they need to become a tropical system. I won't get into the nittygritty of hurricane formation unless you really want it.


Cyber Wolf  Tuesday Sep 21 11:09 PM

Oh by the way, that UHAUL sign just cracks me up!



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Sep 22 01:15 AM

Scary.



alphageek31337  Friday Sep 24 02:20 AM

If I've been paying attention lately (which is an "If" of indescribable proportion), doesn't the position of the moon vis-a-vis the earth have a lot to do with the current surge of hurricane activity? If memory serves (another big one), the moon is actually significantly closer to the earth, causing an increase in tidal activity, and a change in weather patterns that is spawning more and more hurricanes. I remember hearing that we can expect up to 6 or 7 hurricanes of significant force every year for the next couple of decades. Scary prospect, no...?



Cyber Wolf  Friday Sep 24 09:15 AM

I'm not so sure about the increase in tidal activity part. Basically all the moon does is pull the water on Earth a little closer to itself. That alone wouldn't affect the formation and location of forming hurricanes themselves, but would definitely affect how high the storm surge is ends up.

And I'm excited about 6-7 years of intense hurricane activity, but that's the weather junkie in me speaking.



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Sep 25 12:41 AM

Quote:
the moon is actually significantly closer to the earth, causing an increase in tidal activity, and a change in weather patterns that is spawning more and more hurricanes.
What are you, nuts? Everybody knows it's the fault of those people driving Hummers.


FloridaDragon  Saturday Sep 25 02:30 PM

Trying to find humor in tragedy

Greetings all, I am been a lurker for a long time but felt the need to post these couple pictures. Like in the WPB area of FL and got hit by Frances, then went to Pensacola to help family after Ivan. Saw this sign on the way back after having to drive around the bridge over Escambia Bay for I-10 being "removed" by Ivan.

The other picture is of a red cross convoy heading into Northwest Florida after the storm...I am sure the beer truck is not an "official" member of the relief convoy but I am sure he was popular when he got there anyway.

Hunkering down for Jeanne now

FloridaDragon



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Sep 25 04:02 PM

Welcome to the Cellar, Fdragon. Good luck with Jeanne.



FloridaDragon  Saturday Sep 25 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Welcome to the Cellar, Fdragon. Good luck with Jeanne.
Thanks Bruce....hopefully this storm will not wack us too much. Winds picking up pretty good and little trees down but nothing big yet.

I could focus on the damage and suffering that Charley, Frances and Ivan have caused so far but we have all seen too much of that so I tried to look for the humorous parts. Like the story of a coworker who lost the screening over his pool from Frances...much to the surprise of the squirrel which normally uses it to go from one tree to another...needless to say the squirrel ended up in the pool and then a quite pissed off squirrel came tearing out of there scattering the humans that were in the way....that kind of stuff. Would have loved to have had a high speed camera on that squirrel as he passed through the space where he thought the screening would be

FD


Kitsune  Saturday Sep 25 06:07 PM

All right, another Floridian! Hope you all fair okay through this, FLDragon. Everyone here in Tampa seems so sick and tired of these things that we all just don't care, anymore. There haven't been any runs on water, food, or gasoline even though there is a fair chance we'll lose power as Jeanne crosses the state.

More than anything, it would be nice to have a single, decent weekend for a change. I'm getting sick of staying inside.



Cyber Wolf  Saturday Sep 25 10:18 PM

Patience, Kit. You offically have 2 months left in the hurricane season.



Kitsune  Saturday Sep 25 11:23 PM

You offically have 2 months left in the hurricane season.

This has been one of the worst summers for outdoors activities. I haven't been able to go kayaking in months because each weekend it either storms or we get a hurricane. Bicycling has been put on hold because all of the bike trails and parks have been submerged and closed. Even camping in the fall looks like a possible loss just because the rivers aren't going to go down anytime soon.

"Sunshine State", my ass! Oh, wait, we have had sunny, beautiful days! They're called, "The days I've had to go to work!"



404Error  Sunday Sep 26 12:06 AM

I really feel for you Floridians down there having to 'weather' all these hurricanes. I sincerly hope you've seen the worst of them, you've really had your fair share. My parents have a winter trailer home in Florida and they're wondering if they'll have a place left to go to this year. Look on the bright side,if there is one, in a few months you all will be watching or reading the news about how us Northerners are having to deal with winter snow and ice storms.

Keep your heads down and don't get too frustrated!



Kitsune  Sunday Sep 26 10:41 AM

I'd have to say it is a bit rainy outside right now. A little wind, too. Yawn.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Sep 26 10:47 AM

I'm happy to hear you yawning.



Kitsune  Sunday Sep 26 11:00 AM

Heh -- actually, its pretty nuts down here right now. I've not heard rain so loud against the window before and the noise is only interrupted when one of the trees out back pops or explodes as it falls. Its a little frightening, but everything seems to be holding together pretty well. The eye is still a couple hours out, yet, but we're not expecting anything too serious.

We don't expect to hold power much longer, though.



Kitsune  Sunday Sep 26 11:07 AM

...and I should add that the biggest problem right now is the lack of sleep. Starting around 2am, the winds kicked up and sleep became intermittent. All night long, the driving rain and wind were too much to sleep through, so I gave up around 6:30am and flipped on the television to find that the Jeanne decided to not take a Northerly turn as she should have. Straight on into Tampa for a solid day of torment. Dammit.

I can't nap right now and studying is proving to be really tough, too, because the wind gusts are so distracting. Great timing for my exams on Monday and Tuesday. Ugh.



Undertoad  Sunday Sep 26 11:23 AM

Oh but it's a mere 75 mph for you this time around. Hardly worth a reporter standing outside to show us.



xoxoxoBruce  Sunday Sep 26 11:24 AM

Maybe they'll delay exams.
I've friends up in DeBarry, between Orlando and Daytona, that have the attached garage converted into a guest room. They bought a generator, window airconditioner and mini-fridge, to wait out the power outages, in the guest room.



Kitsune  Sunday Sep 26 11:38 AM

Oh but it's a mere 75 mph for you this time around.

Which is exactly why there are still people on the roads right now. Like anything is open right now.

Maybe they'll delay exams.

Oh, I wish. If we miss anymore days of class, though, the whole semester is going to be placed in jeopardy. I can't even imagine what county schools are going through right now because they shut down with even a threat so that the school buildings can be converted into shelters.



tw  Sunday Sep 26 11:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune
You offically have 2 months left in the hurricane season."Sunshine State", my ass! Oh, wait, we have had sunny, beautiful days! They're called, "The days I've had to go to work!"
Welcome to PA and NY in November, December, January, February, March, April, ....


FloridaDragon  Sunday Sep 26 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune
We don't expect to hold power much longer, though.
Yes another Floridian Kit, although I am thinking somewhere like Denver sounds a lot better right about now (no hurricanes!). Snow storms don't usually take your house away. We have lots of tile damage on the roof and some minor damage to the pool enclosure...but that is a small price to pay for a category 2 (Frances) and a cat 3 (Jeanne) double punch.

We have power back already which is a major miracle. I live near Stuart and the eye of both Frances and Jeanne passed directly over us ... two in three weeks... unbelievable. Underground utilities are wonderful!

Another funny sign (this time from Frances):


FD


Kitsune  Sunday Sep 26 11:43 PM

We have power back already which is a major miracle. I live near Stuart and the eye of both Frances and Jeanne passed directly over us ... two in three weeks... unbelievable. Underground utilities are wonderful!

We didn't actually lose power this time around, which is a small miracle in itself. No damage, either, although from listening to the police scanner I'd say we were the exception and not the rule.

Low pressure weather systems, by the way, really suck, and I mean in the sense that it affects your mood. At least for me, I felt like sleeping all day but couldn't because of the wind, so I got extremely annoyed. Mix that with nothing on television and my want to avoid studying for as long as possible and it made for a really bad weekend. At this rate I'll actually be happy to go work work, tomorrow, instead of sitting inside all day.



stlbob  Monday Sep 27 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDragon
I am sure the beer truck is not an "official" member of the relief convoy but I am sure he was popular when he got there anyway.
FloridaDragon
That beer truck would be loaded down with cans of water. Anheuser-Busch is always one of the first companies to aid in disaster relief. In the past five years, Anheuser-Busch has donated more than 40 million cans of water to victims of natural disasters.


Last month (Aug), Anheuser-Busch donated 24,000 cases -- or more than a half-million cans -- of drinking water to aid the victims and rescue workers in Florida who were impacted by Hurricane Charley. The Anheuser-Busch Foundation also donated $100,000 to hurricane relief efforts in the state, giving $50,000 to The Salvation Army and $50,000 to the American Red Cross.

http://www.anheuser-busch.com/news/


tw  Monday Sep 27 05:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaDragon
We have power back already ... Underground utilities are wonderful!
Now we demonstrate perspective. In America, the news reports list all those places that lost power. Disaster. In the BCC, they also mention how those dumb Americans still hang power wires from poles. Of course they lose power as the BBC story goes. They still put the electric lines in a most stupid place - hanging from wooden poles where all wires are damaged when they are most needed - right after the big storm.

Imagine what would happen to the US if we spent a few $billion on burying utility lines rather than spending hundreds of $billions liberating people who did not want to be liberated.

When they hype the cost of a storm, then first ask how much money would have been saved by putting those lines where they should have been, and by meeting standard and well proven construction codes. These are storm that we should build to protect from. We must build for what may happen in the next hundred years. Hurricanes are a fact of life and are known to be increased by global warming. Time to deal with reality. Where local power lines are not buried, then we have damage directly traceable to humans.


Kitsune  Monday Sep 27 05:23 PM

Imagine what would happen to the US if we spent a few $billion on burying utility lines rather than spending hundreds of $billions liberating people who did not want to be liberated.

...

Uh, well, that was some unexpected logic. Did you just tie hurricane-induced power outtages with the Iraq war on a random whim or is there more to this than I'm reading?

They still put the electric lines in a most stupid place - hanging from wooden poles where all wires are damaged when they are most needed - right after the big storm.

We have just a little more distance to cover over here with power infrastructure in the US than Europe and, of course, no one wants to pay for it. Besides, its all cost and politics, anyways.



glatt  Monday Sep 27 05:34 PM

Besides, when the typical home owner goes to install a new mailbox, they don't normally call "miss utility" or whetever the local underground utility finder is. That can be a very expensive mistake for everyone when they cut the wire by accident. When the wires are 30 feet overhead, it's a lot harder to mess with them.

They sure are ugly though.



FloridaDragon  Monday Sep 27 08:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stlbob
That beer truck would be loaded down with cans of water. Anheuser-Busch is always one of the first companies to aid in disaster relief. In the past five years, Anheuser-Busch has donated more than 40 million cans of water to victims of natural disasters.
Well that takes all the fun out of thinking of opening up a nice cold can of beer after chainsawing trees all day that fell on and around your house....
(I can say this as I am still all scratched and banged up from doing just that)

FEMA supplies plenty of drinking water ... Anheuser-Busch would be more welcome if it was loaded with Bud and Bud Light!

(Note: I am not trying to negate the great humanitarian efforts of A-B in the slightest! Wish more corporate giants were that kind hearted).

FD


russotto  Tuesday Sep 28 03:15 PM

Burying things in Florida is always a little on the iffy side anyway. As is burying anything in PA, though for different reasons. Underground water mains break for a reason.



tw  Tuesday Sep 28 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune
Imagine what would happen to the US if we spent a few $billion on burying utility lines rather than spending hundreds of $billions liberating people who did not want to be liberated.

...

Uh, well, that was some unexpected logic. Did you just tie hurricane-induced power outtages with the Iraq war on a random whim or is there more to this than I'm reading?
Its called guns or butter. Either we spend $billions on a airplane that did not have a function for decades - the B-1 bomber never worked for nearly a generation - or we build schools. We could be rebuilding our infastructure OR we could liberate people who don't want to be liberated.

Many are now advocating we enlarge our military. Its too small. Screw the people in FL. We will drop a massive debt on their kids and leave them to keep replacing their power lines. Better to invest $400billion on Iraq.

Currently with a president who literally perverts science and undermines in four years what professional diplomats and generals accomplished over 40 years - then little solutions such as making FL hurricane resistant can not happen. Do we rescue the world when the world does not even want to be saved - or do we advance America. Sorry if I view from a larger perspective. But I am asking what will we be doing 10 years from now - still putting electric lines back up on poles while enlarging a military that is already larger than the next five countries combined. Fighting how many more Arab insurgents while killing off another 800 Americans every year? This neocon thinking is always a first step to destruction of a world leading power. It starts when we don't even improve our own infastructure.

Some people see damage in FL as something to be repeatedly repaired. I see it as a mistake that we should be eliminating now so that it does not happen again. But that means we must have our people working where they can be productive - not wasting time trying to restore electricity where Saddam had no problem doing same.


tw  Tuesday Sep 28 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt
Besides, when the typical home owner goes to install a new mailbox, they don't normally call "miss utility" or whetever the local underground utility finder is. That can be a very expensive mistake for everyone when they cut the wire by accident. When the wires are 30 feet overhead, it's a lot harder to mess with them.
Buried wires are 2.5 feet deep. When does the typical homeowner dig 3 feet to install a mailbox? Furthermore, the homeowner always must call the utility where utility lines may exist. It does not take a genius to see the utility box on the street and the electric meter on the side of a house; then draw a line.

Buried wires are automatically located and for free. Furthermore, it takes far more than a shovel to pierce those wires. Covering material (ususally a few inches of sand or other protective materail) provides warning of those wires. In short it is difficult to harm buried wires.

When is the best time to have wires broken? When the weather is nice , OR when electricity is desperately needed everywhere, not available anywhere, and all wires need fixing at the same time.

Damage to buried wires tends to occur when it is not a problem and when it can most easily be repaired. The only reason we put wires overhead: its cheaper from a bean counter MBA perspective which only looks at today's costs. Analysis of infastruture looks at the real long term costs. It makes no sense to hang wires from poles in oceanside FL communities that will probably see a 120 MPH storm every 20+ years. A time span too long for most MBA thinkers.


Happy Monkey  Tuesday Sep 28 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Buried wires are 2.5 feet deep. When does the typical homeowner dig 3 feet to install a mailbox?
When the local teens are keen on mailbox baseball.


Kitsune  Tuesday Sep 28 08:15 PM

We could be rebuilding our infastructure OR we could liberate people who don't want to be liberated.

I don't agree with the methods in which my tax dollars are being spent. Really, I don't. I can't stand that money is coming out of my pocket and is essentially being burried in the sand half a world away. It enrages me, infuriates me. I hate seeing American soldiers die for what I think was a deception, a lie. My money is going to fund a war that I don't think we can ever win in which my fellow citizens are dying.

But the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about it is not, "Gee, that blood money could be used to install power underground in Florida." There are, without a doubt, several thousand issues that the war is taking money from that are far more important in the US ahead of keeping Floridians powered at this time.

Do we rescue the world when the world does not even want to be saved - or do we advance America.

Let's see... Federal tax dollars going to bury power lines in a Southern state. Um, no? As in: that ain't where my, yours, or anyone else's federal tax money should go?

(yes, I know federal aid follwing a disaster plays a part in all of this. That's another argument, entirely.)

Sorry if I view from a larger perspective.

I think you might be viewing this from too large a perspective, not to mention that you're suggesting federal dollars go to a state problem. And your argument is so emotionally and politically charged that I can't help but think you've posted it under a hurricane thread when you really intended to put it in the political forum. You're linking the Iraq war with people losing power following a storm. Not feeding the hungry, helping the poor, assisting the jobless, improving the environment, international aid, scientific research, funding to prevent AIDs, drug rehab programs, or even promotion of a cure for cancer. You're upset that the ice cream in someone's fridge melted when a tree went down on their lines. Oh, the humanity.

It makes no sense to hang wires from poles in oceanside FL communities that will probably see a 120 MPH storm every 20+ years.

Of course it doesn't and I agree, but do you realize that the people of Florida don't agree with you? You do understand that the majority of the people here would rather see a small increase in their power bills after a storm to replace equipment that is almost garunteed to be destroyed again in less than a decade than put out a huge amount of money at once to put it underground? A massive investment to prevent losing power for ~48 hours once every 20+ years doesn't make sense to the taxpayer. I would love, love to see the infrastructure here updated to 1970s technology at some point in my lifetime. The problem is that no one wants to pay for it, regardless of the consequences.

Besides, living in Florida you kind of expect this. We all know that any year now a storm so massive could come along and completely wipe out our houses and cities -- power is often the least of our worries. We all watch the "cone of probability" with great fear, knowing that it could change any of our lives forever if we happen to be "lucky" enough to call an area home that happens to be within the path of the eye. For the smaller storms or living on the edge of one that hits, we're usually all well prepared with batteries, water, generators, etc. For those that do live here and haven't prepared, you get what's coming to you.

Really, we're all upset when the "green pinwheel of death" marches across the meterologist's map and wipes trailers, houses, and communities from the landscape. We hate losing phone service and being forced to boil water. We're frustrated and tired of seeing no gasoline available at the gas stations as we drive past on our way to evacuate up a jammed interstate. But I've never met anyone that walked, flashlight in hand, to a warm fridge in the middle of the night while clenching their teeth that said, "Goddamn that George W. Bush and his war, spoiling my milk."



Cyber Wolf  Tuesday Sep 28 09:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune
You're upset that the ice cream in someone's fridge melted when a tree went down on their lines. Oh, the humanity.
Depending on the ice cream, that could be a fully legit complaint


xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Sep 29 11:33 PM

There was a case around here, in the last couple years, where a guy tried to put a picket fence along his front yard. Holiday weekend and he dug into the power supply for the whole subdivision, only 2 feet down. Lots of pissed off neighbors, and a huge bill from the Electric company for the fix. Of course he's damn lucky he didn't fry.



glatt  Thursday Sep 30 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Buried wires are automatically located and for free. Furthermore, it takes far more than a shovel to pierce those wires. Covering material (ususally a few inches of sand or other protective materail) provides warning of those wires. In short it is difficult to harm buried wires.
I agree with most of what you say, but you overestimate the typical homeowner. A wire looks a lot like a root when it is caked with dirt. Many homeowners (not most, but many) will reach for an axe or clippers when they come to a dirt encrusted wire. If there is a layer of sand before they hit the wire, many homeowners will be pleased that the digging is getting easier. Often there is yellow plastic tape in the sand above the wire. "Hmm, there's trash in the dirt."

All it takes is one in ten diggers being an idiot, and you have widespread problems. Wires in the air are safe from idiots. Idiots will be electrocuted long before they hurt the wires in the air.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm a fan of buried wires. They look better, are weather resisitant, and you don't have the electric company over-pruning the trees in the area to protect its overhead wires. But buried wires are very very expensive, and difficult to repair.


Troubleshooter  Thursday Sep 30 10:12 AM

My mother and grandmother live in Pensacola. The city told them yesterday that they could start drinking the water again. Apparently the surge washed up far enough to flood the sewer treatment pond into the city water system.



FloridaDragon  Thursday Sep 30 11:26 AM

I understand both sides of the arguement (buried verses overhead) but really feel that some kind of effort should be made to gradually move the wires underground. When Frances approached there were widespread power outages on Thursday morning in the Palm Beach area as the initial bands moved ashore. All of these were trees across wires. We lost power Saturday night as the eyewall hit the coastline. Our power was restored for a few hours on Sunday morning and then continuously on Monday morning. We have buried utilities due to being in a new development.

Then when Jeanne approached, we again heard of power outages (not as many this time as the trees had been somewhat pruned by the first cat 2 storm) and again, we did not lose power until late Saturday night as the eyewall was just off the coast. Power came on again Sunday about 11am and stayed on. Both of these storms were direct hits on Palm City.

The sad part is I knew people here at work that had only gotten their power back for a couple of days from Frances before Jeanne knocked it out again and they are hearing it could be as late as October 12th. Unbelievable.

Currently it seems that the power lines only get buried in new communities and you almost never see them being put underground in older ones. There are areas here in Palm City where they are tearing the roads and driveways up putting in new sewer and water lines, talk about a good time to put wires underground as well, but are they doing that? No...not much planning on their part. I know there is additional cost to putting them underground, but as a current FL resident I would be willing to bet most of us down here would pay a little extra to do it right once and for all.

FD



CharlieG  Thursday Sep 30 01:33 PM

it doesn't require any FEDERAL money - folks, the government doesn't run the electric company, so the "Iraq Money" comments have nothing to do with it.

It IS easy to solve - but it takes time. The first part is the state, or even local community to pass a law:

All new development shall use underground utility services

Guess what? It starts getting fixed

The later they can say:

By XXXX date, all feeders below YYY volts must be moved underground (a LOT of VERY high voltage lines are in the air for VERY good reasons). Thing is, you lose the real big stuff, you lose a lot of homes, BUT you have a lot fewer wires to worry about, so they get fixed faster



Kitsune  Thursday Sep 30 02:22 PM

All new development shall use underground utility services

I'm all for it. I'm tempted to write the city/county on it now that its become a major discussion point.

Actually, all the new development I see down here has lines going underground. In fact, for my area, there are no overhead lines visible except for the really high voltage stuff. During Frances we still lost power because, somehow, those lines ended up going down. I kind of wish I'd been around to see it, too -- they're the lines that you can hear in the rain so it had to be a spectacular explosion when they dropped! Sizzle.

Damn, I love high voltage.



FloridaDragon  Thursday Sep 30 04:19 PM

I don't know which lines went down that resulted in us losing power during both Frances or Jeanne since our local ones are underground but it certainly was spectacular with Jeanne as we sat on the somewhat protected front porch as the eye approached and watched the sky light up every 10 seconds with another blue/green transformer explosion...now if they could solve THAT problem we would be all set! (when we lost power during Jeanne there was a quite spectacular flash off in the distance as something big went)

FD



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Sep 30 08:38 PM

You won't have to worry about hurricanes in your new location.



tw  Thursday Sep 30 10:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieG
it doesn't require any FEDERAL money - folks, the government doesn't run the electric company, so the "Iraq Money" comments have nothing to do with it.
An outright and naive statement. One need only learn the lessons of recent history. A lesson from history so obvious that I appalled I have to explain it.

When a federal government spends money it does not have, then it does so at the entire economy's expense. Vietnam literally sucked the economic growth out of America. Massive (and secret) spending on Vietnam in the late sixties and early 70s caused American cars to suffer massive quality problems starting in the 1970s and lasting into the 1980s. American tires had a 50+% pre-mature failure rate as companies cut costs. Buildings were wired with aluminum - a problem we still live with today. Homes were built without plywood reinforced walls (instead we used a soft fiber board called Celotex). Pot holes and street resurfacing literally stopped - does anyone remember the massive pot hole problems in the late 1970s?

To continue paying those debts, America had to literally sell off the world's third largest manufacturing base - American owned industries in Europe. American wealth and economic stability (every part that was not part of the federal government) deteriorated because the federal government spent money it did not have. When a large economic entity suddenly spends beyond its budget, those funds come at the expense of everything else. Obviously.

Did we not learn from Napoleon? Turning a strong economy into a disaster even though a government budget is separate from all those other economic entities. Napoleon's wars literally undermined the entire French economy - even though the entire economy does not budget the wars.

Again, posted here is common knowledge to those who studied history or even learned the "I was there" lessons from Vietnam. Posted here is an insult against those who think it costs nothing because they are different budgets. Another painfully obvious lesson created by a lying president who spents beyond his budget - stagflation. What is affected by stagflation? Stagflation literally destroys all other budgets.

Athens was once THE world power. Then Athens decided to save the world from Sparta. Invasion of Sryacuse undermined the entire Athenian economy. Why? The war was fought in Syracuse - far from Athens. Accounting says losses in Syracuse have no effect on domestic Athenian budgets. But accounting can lie if we spin it. Reality. Massive overseas spending on useless wars causes everything else to be more expensive and the domestic infastructure to wither.

Overspending in one budget undermines all others. $400billion in Iraq means we must now stop doing the maintenance and infastructure upgrades that once kept America strong. For example, we cannot put those FL utilities underground and we cannot properly educate our kids. We spent almost nothing to rescue Kuwait. The entire expense of that war was paid for by all other nations because America did not have a 'screw you all' attitude. Japan paid the most. We spent little because we had a president then with intelligence. Therefore that war did not cause massive budget problems in state governments and electric companies.

Don't give me bean counter nonsense about those $400billion coming from another budget. Otherwise I will suspect you are George Jr - MBA and therefore a liar. It is rather silly that I even have to post what should be common knowledge to all who took history courses. Foreign boondoogles paid by a federal government means all other budgets get stressed. Simple things that would make America resilient such as underground utilities in FL will not happen because we decided to spend more on a personal vendetta in Iraq. Learn from history. The economies and infastructure that maintain massive militaries fail fastest - even though the military comes from *other* budgets.


tw  Thursday Sep 30 10:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt
I agree with most of what you say, but you overestimate the typical homeowner. A wire looks a lot like a root when it is caked with dirt. Many homeowners (not most, but many) will reach for an axe or clippers when they come to a dirt encrusted wire.
And so the naysayers said in the 1970s when we finally only started doing what is standard in Britian. If what you say is true, then FloridaDragon can tell us how frequently this happens in his neighborhood.

Anyone can write fiction when they don't do their homework or don't have experience. Reality says this homeowner reaching for an ax to cut a wire 2.5 feet underground simply does not happen. How often do you dig holes 2.5 feet deep with an axe? Please keep the speculations on the reality side of myths. Buried lines are far less likely to be taken down by trucks and stray automobiles. Buried wires are far more likely to be available when power is needed most - after bad weather.


tw  Thursday Sep 30 11:08 PM

Why FL's infastructure must be hardened; must be made resilient.

Quote:
from NY Times of 1 Oct 2004
Global Warming Is Expected to Raise Hurricane Intensity
Global warming is likely to produce a significant increase in the intensity and rainfall of hurricanes in coming decades, according to the most comprehensive computer analysis done so far.

By the 2080's, seas warmed by rising atmospheric concentrations of heat-trapping greenhouse gases could cause a typical hurricane to intensify about an extra half step on the five-step scale of destructive power, says the study, done on supercomputers at the Commerce Department's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, N.J. And rainfall up to 60 miles from the core would be nearly 20 percent more intense.

Other computer modeling efforts have also predicted that hurricanes will grow stronger and wetter as a result of global warming. But this study is particularly significant, independent experts said, because it used half a dozen computer simulations of global climate, devised by separate groups at institutions around the world.



Cyber Wolf  Thursday Sep 30 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Reality says this homeowner reaching for an ax to cut a wire 2.5 feet underground simply does not happen.
Nah, fully certified and licensed electricians will do that. That's the reality I lived through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
How often do you dig holes 2.5 feet deep with an axe?
Probably not very often, but people certainly could grab an axe if they dig down with something else, hit a root and have the room to swing up and down.


Cyber Wolf  Thursday Sep 30 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Why FL's infastructure must be hardened; must be made resilient.
You can add just about every other state in the country for their own weather woes, specifically tornado season and heavy snow and/or ice storms.

Take heart, Florida! The Mid Eastern seaboard and New England's gonna get theirs come winter!


glatt  Friday Oct 1 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Anyone can write fiction when they don't do their homework or don't have experience. Reality says this homeowner reaching for an ax to cut a wire 2.5 feet underground simply does not happen. How often do you dig holes 2.5 feet deep with an axe? Please keep the speculations on the reality side of myths.
I wonder how many holes you have dug in you life? Either you have dug none, or you were incompetent when you were digging the ones you did. To dig a hole properly, you use two tools: a shovel and a mattock. A mattock is a kind of axe used for cutting roots, and breaking up hard packed dirt so it can be scooped out with a shovel. In rocky soil, a pick works better than a mattock, but a pick doesn't cut roots. While I have both, most homeowners don't have picks or mattocks, so they would use what they have on hand, which is most likely an axe or pruning clippers.

Here's a mattock. In the hands of an idiot, it would do a number on your precious underground wires. So would an axe. Understand that I'm not saying EVERY homeowner will chop up wires. All you need is one idiot out of a hundred homeowners. In the real world, that ratio is pretty realistic.




FloridaDragon  Friday Oct 1 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
If what you say is true, then FloridaDragon can tell us how frequently this happens in his neighborhood.
At least in my experience in SoFla and CT, a homeowner cutting an underground utility line is extremely rare. The typical homeowner is intelligent enough (maybe just barely) to know that they need to call when they are putting in that new fence and all those postholes. Now the same person will probably not call when they are planting that tree and digging a single hole.

But I think the frequency of overhead wires being taken out by a truck or errant treetrimming job is also pretty rare when you think of the sheer quantity of wires out there. It is primarily these catastrophic events like these storms that do overhead lines in. We all like to live (well, most of us anyway) with lots of trees and plants around us...we set ourselves up for the fall.

The only wire I have ever cut myself was my neighbors invisible fence line for their dog. The installers hit a stump on the property line and decided to put it on my side (without my knowledge) so when I was planting some plants it got wacked.

FD


CharlieG  Friday Oct 1 09:39 AM

Oh please - all those wires stung in the air over the last 30-40 years are all the fault of the war in Iraq - yeah, right

Cars were shoddy in the 70s because the big 3 got lazy, and then had a bunch of "interesting" laws pushed on them - the 1st being polution controls, and then the 1973 gas crisis leading to the CAFE laws (which directly lead to the rise of the SUV, but lets not go THERE)

If your company has built a plant figuring on a 30 year life span (which the big 3 used to do) if costs a fortune to re-tool to make something else. In the mean time, if the guys you compete aginst made the right guess (small engines) they have a huge advantage



Kitsune  Friday Oct 1 10:02 AM

Oh please - all those wires stung in the air over the last 30-40 years are all the fault of the war in Iraq - yeah, right

Be kind to him, CharlieG. Its obvious that tw is really unhappy that his house near the beach has lost power so many times due to all these hurricanes. That'd make anyone blame it on Iraq. Right, tw?



xoxoxoBruce  Friday Oct 1 04:00 PM

That wire cutter is called a post hole digger. Sharp, double bladed and can be driven down with considerable force. Direct bury romex, one shot. Buried service entrance, a couple shots but probably short on the first.
Now if you go down to the rental center for a powered post hole digger, Oh baby, can you wreak some havoc.



glatt  Friday Oct 1 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Now if you go down to the rental center for a powered post hole digger, Oh baby, can you wreak some havoc.
My neighbor, who did not call the utility location service, rented a bobcat with the fence post auger attachment. He dug about 50 or so 3 foot deep fence post holes. Each one took about 5 seconds to do, once he was lined up in the right spot. There were no buried wires, but if there had been, he would have done a number on them.

They guy was very nice. He actually let me drive the thing around for a few minutes, digging holes myself. Very cool. Just like driving a tank in Battle Zone. Arcade video games are useful.


wolf  Friday Oct 1 10:59 PM

A friend of mine lost her cable service for a week because the fire company decided that hydrants on the street should be marked with a reflector that would stick up above the expected snow drifts ... the first go-round of these were just pounded into the ground behind the curbside hydrant.

Right though the cable.

I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky that they missed the gasline.



FloridaDragon  Monday Oct 11 10:59 PM

Haven't seen this image on the cellar anywhere - Ivan in the Gulf as a cat 4 ... off a news page in Mobile, AL (www.wkrg.com). Part I wonder about is it looks like a right angle cloud in the eye....what the heck is that all about?

FD



Cyber Wolf  Tuesday Oct 12 07:48 AM

Now now now, you don't have massive weather systems going around trying to explain YOUR little quirks, do you?



Kitsune  Tuesday Oct 12 09:19 AM

Part I wonder about is it looks like a right angle cloud in the eye....what the heck is that all about?

Jet contrail.



Elspode  Tuesday Oct 12 12:01 PM

Optical illusion caused by two cloud layers stacked one on the other?



OnyxCougar  Monday Oct 18 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Buried wires are 2.5 feet deep.
Where I live (NC) buried wires are 6 inches deep. That's a statewide standard.

Quote:
Furthermore, the homeowner always must call the utility where utility lines may exist. It does not take a genius to see the utility box on the street and the electric meter on the side of a house; then draw a line.

Buried wires are automatically located and for free.
I realize you aren't in NC, but here, we have a free state wide service called NC One Call, where you call, give them an address, and they mark everything: electricity, cable, telephone, water, etc.

Quote:
Furthermore, it takes far more than a shovel to pierce those wires. Covering material (ususally a few inches of sand or other protective materail) provides warning of those wires. In short it is difficult to harm buried wires.
Not true. Because they aren't buried as deep as you think they are. Now fibreoptic...main electricity lines... THOSE are buried deeper, but your average tap - to - box on the side of the house lines are 6 inches down. Easily cuttable. Happens EVERY day. I know, because I'm the person on the phone at the cable company that gets the customers wanting our tech to come out and fix it RIGHT NOW when their landscaper cut the cable in 4 places.

Quote:
When is the best time to have wires broken? When the weather is nice , OR when electricity is desperately needed everywhere, not available anywhere, and all wires need fixing at the same time.

Damage to buried wires tends to occur when it is not a problem and when it can most easily be repaired. The only reason we put wires overhead: its cheaper from a bean counter MBA perspective which only looks at today's costs. Analysis of infastruture looks at the real long term costs. It makes no sense to hang wires from poles in oceanside FL communities that will probably see a 120 MPH storm every 20+ years. A time span too long for most MBA thinkers.
I see where you are on this, TW, and I agree with you, to a point. That point is: it's not the GOVERNMENT'S responsibility to bury those lines. It's the company's. The company I work for has an active plan to bury all of it's lines across the country (including Pensacola and Gainesville), and it's really expensive, but it's not something the government said we had to do. Nor should it be. Check your copy of the constitution.

Blaming Dubya for not burying power lines is an emotional response. Blame the ELECTRIC companies, who have to do the work and pay for permits from the cities, and then blame the CUSTOMERS who bitch and moan when their bills go up to offset the cost when the companies DO bury the lines.


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