1/26/2005: Hindu swastika

According to Hindu mythology, Swastika is the sign of prosperity. It wasn't their fault that it came to represent Nazism and thus a kind of evil. And so Hindus have launched a campaign to reclaim the swastika from its Nazi past and reinstate the 5,000-year-old emblem as a symbol of good luck.

Marketing is important, even to religions and schools of thought. But in this case they have a pretty difficult way to go. I'm not sure I could be convinced that this is a symbol of luck and/or prosperity. I don't mind if the Hindus use it differently, but I don't expect them to change our culture's notion of what it is.

All of which is very strange, when you think about it; it's just a symbol, just a mark, just a set of lines. Or is it?

I remember seeing swastikas in the Southwest in rock paintings by the Navahos? or another native american tribe. I thought some damn punk kids had vandalized the place, but found out later I was wrong.

Who named it the "Swastika?" Is that the original name or is that what the Nazi's named it??

Apparently they hired some British royalty to help their marketing effort...

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce [Sanskrit svastika, sign of good luck, swastika, from svasti, well-being; see (e)su- in Indo-European roots.]

And then, of course, some may be familiar with the picture of the Edmonton Swastikas, a Canadian girls' hockey team from 1916...

<IMG SRC="http://www.trichotomy.ca/images/edmontonswastikas.jpg" />

Why is it insensitive for a group to try to reclaim their religious emblem of peace and prosperity from a group that turned it into a secular emblem of hate and persecution?

There was a lot of resentment against the Finns during and after World War II when pictures were seen of swastikas painted on aircraft:

http://www.swastika-info.com/en/arti...061679609.html

(Any plane buffs out there? Is that a Brewster Buffalo? I know the US sent a few over to aid the Finns vs the Russians).

Supposedly, the Nazis didhelp the Finns when they were invaded by Russia, but the Finns were using swastikas long before the Nazis came to power.

(edited to add this quote)

There is a significant difference between the Nazi swastika and those used by the Asians.

But first, a little tidbit... the swastika, at least in Buddhist theology, is a symbol of purification and the state one reaches when enlightened. The Nazi's took that symbol and warped it into the genocide of all but their white/blonde/blue-eyed/etc super race. Quite unfortunate, really...

The biggest difference is that the Nazi swastika is rotated 45 degrees so that it looks kind of like a diamond. The traditional swastika is more square-like. You'll notice that the Canadian Swastika team uses the traditional alignment for the swastika.

Some Jews don't eat Bacon, can we get mmmmmbacon to change his user name to someting less treif? How about mmmmmtofu? or mmmmchicken? Or maybe just mmmm?

Why don't we just kowtow to everyone's personal sensitivity and then kill a bunch of palestinians to show how sensitive we are to people's feelings.

Oh yeah, I mean kill them after we just take their land. My bad.

I'm thinking the Old Capitol museum in Jackson, MS. has a Swastika in the floor. Built around 1839.

Damn Rednecks.
I'm with axlrosen, don't underestimate the unwashed masses, they understand.
I don't think any of the gang bikers will be covering their swastika tattoos because the Hindus call for it's return as a symbol of good things.

Note to magilla

Yes, it IS a Brewster Buffalo. Thank you for asking.

Brian, plane buff

Yes, I think we're all actually mostly in agreement here - we just weren't sure what this campaign is trying to do. So I Googled around and found that this campaign actually is in response to the aftermath of Prince Harry's outfit. People are calling for a Europe-wide ban on displaying swastikas, and Hindus are trying to educate people that the symbol has other meanings than Nazism.

"You find it in houses, temples and in portraits of Hindu gods. A swastika is even painted on the head of a baby who's just had his first hair-cutting sacrament."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4188141.stm

That's good work ax, thanks!

Is it ok if I want to fly my Confederate flag?*

*I don't have one, I just want to know if it's ok. I may get one. You never know what you might buy on QVC after a few 7&7's.

Some people feel it's a symbol of slavery. Or, support of slavery.

Multiple meanings for graphic symbols based on context is a pretty valuable thing to learn. Its literacy. And thousands of years of peaceful and continued use of this mark by non western groups is good to know. Evil will always find or appropriate symbols to aid in their marketing plans.

Well, TS, I suppose since it's me, it would have to be both, wouldn't it?

I like the Bonnie Blue. Simple, yet magestic.

Lighten up or get laid or something, will you?

Obviously I meant the Confederate Battle Flag! Sheesh! The one they fly around here in certain neighborhoods during certain anniversary's of certain battles! The battle of Chickamauga, etc.

NOBODY flies the damn Bonnie Blue for crissakes! Not in Ohio, anyway. You fella's continue to fight the good fight, though. Be deadly serious. It's good for your cardiac health. And chicks really dig it.

Just to be clear, I was saying that Troubleshooter pretending he didn't know which flag you were talking about was deliberate ignorance. Though perhaps I should have called it feigned ignorance. Everyone knows which flag is meant by "Confederate Flag". Bringing up other flags is just an attempt (successful in this case) to deflect a conversation into minutia.

I love minutia. Minutia makes the world go 'round.

I was sort of paralleling the whole point about the differences in the various swastikas with the, rather common, mistake about the flags, no attempt at a threadjack.

I'm what you would call, to borrow a phrase from E. E. Doc Smith, a "high tension thinker. I run wide open throttle most of the time. Sometimes it's a benefit, sometimes it's a pain in the ass. See LJ's anxiety thread...

An idea just occured to me.

Wouldn't banning the swastika be a form of religious persecution or discrimination?

One has to wonder how many temples there are in europe where the symbol is displayed...

I'm not Jewish but I think it would a shame if people didn't associate it with the Natzis' so we'd remember the terrible things they did.

The germans don't call the swastika "swastika" but "Hakenkreuz" which means "cross with hooks" when they think of the nazi-symbol... so they have 2 different names with 2 meanings for the same symbol. This, I think, makes it lot easier to make a difference...

I really don't understand how people can deny the holocaust happened.

They want to be able to hate Jews without being associated with mass murder, which they can't do without denying the mass murder in the first place.

so all the pictures and testimonies and people who survived and soldiers who liberated are ?? faking? lying? delusional?

See this thread. They think it's a conspiracy to trick people into sympathising with Jews.

Here is a link of a link of a link...

http://www.crystalinks.com/swastika.html

eradication of ignorance through education

Don’t get me wrong , yes the swastika to many people not just Jews , is a reminder of the horror of the holocaust, but its true meaning is not what the majority perceive it to be. In fact it is actually a symbol of peace, creation and oneness with a higher consciousness. Although this has been the general meaning of the symbol for thousands of years in eastern Asia, as well as in parts of Europe, northern Africa and North America, it has become bastardized and distorted by the Nazis, as a symbol of genocide, death, darkness and pure evil.

I don’t want to change people’s views of the swastika I just want to highlight that there is a whole history of the swastika before Nazism. Before people become judgmental about the symbol’s use in today’s religions, they should educate themselves on its true meaning, a meaning that is completely opposite to the warped views of Hitler.

Therefore if one is offended by the use of the symbol for religious purposes one can be able to understand that the swastika symbolizes a completely different meaning than what the tyrannical Nazi party used it to represent.

You're right moksha, most people will upon seeing any variation of a swastika immediately think of the Nazis. But if they think a little before reacting negatively, everybody wins.
Welcome to the Cellar.

I wonder where this playground is?

That's too bad, because it's actually a pretty ingenious design. Making something work equivalently and not look like a swastika would be difficult.

Welcome to the Cellar India.

i'm pretty new to the whole genocide, nazi VS jew thing. but of late ive seen a few movies and read up on a few things and it just baffles me how so many jews were taken prisioner by the germans. Why did they not fight back - surely the massive number of jews could have taken on a few guards?

And i am yet to hear the story from the nazi point of view. How could a normal human being be brainwashed into killing children, babies, women and men in cold blood, and (in the movies) have it be the same as us squashing an ant in our sandwhich?

i obviously have a lot to learn about it, i know, but there is so much i dont understand about it. I mean, maybe the symbol is good luck - and thats why the germans had so much success in overpowering the jews?

do we have any jewish cellarites or any cellarites whose decended from nazi/ german backgrounds?

but to get them into imprisonment in the first place is what i am talking about. i mean, just turning up and saying right you 300 ppl get into the back of that truck, or me and my army of 20 men will hurt you.

First you disarm the whole civilian population.
Second you create animosity between the Jews and everyone else.
Third you herd the Jews into separate neighborhoods
Fourth you wall the neighborhoods and lock them in at night.
Then you round them up and ship them in boxcars to "labor camps"
It's not that hard.

That makes me a VERY good citizen.





etc.


(N.B. Troubleshooter, the little guy in the second pic is also a KelTec product ...)

do we have any jewish cellarites or any cellarites whose decended from nazi/ german backgrounds?
_________________________________________________________________
Can't claim the backgrounds but if I part my hair on the right I bear a scary resemblance to a certain high profile Nazi. A couple of years ago I went to a Halloween Party and my German friend went white when he saw me.

I dont dispute that. but i dont believe that being armed would make any difference to our survival.

I'll never use a gun on a human, if i was going to kill someone then they must deserve it, so then id rather beat then to death with a crow bar then just shoot them.

whats a WOP?

I believe it stands for 'WithOut Papers' but it's used as an offensive terms for a person of Italian descent.

Wop:Italian::Mick:Irishman

especially when the first one misses by a little. Then you have a howling terrorist on your hands, and he won't hold still for the coup de grace. but he's still reaching for a gun, so you gotta do it despite his tears and yelling, or you get shot.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa*crunch*


you have a stronger stomach than me. I'd rather end the discussion without all the histrionics.

If someone gets close enough to me to NEED being bashed in the head with a crowbar, I've done something wrong.

i think a famous scene from Indiana Jones sums this conversation up well.

Bad guy stands in place demonstrating his mad skills with his sword. the crowd oohs and ahs. Harrison Ford puts a bullet in him and goes back to what he was doing.

'nuff said.

ok let me ask you this then:

if guns were JUST invented.. and nobody else had them. ie: you wouldnt have to have one to defend yourself against someone else who had one.

Would agree with anti gun concepts then?

(hunting animals not included, i'm talking about protection)

No

Self-defense isn't about fairness or equality. As with most things it is about trumping the other guy.

If he has a stick and I have a gun, he may not have have to die if he's smart.

If he has a stick and I have a stick, we may fight or not depending on if he thinks it would be a fair fight or not.

If he has a stick and I don't, he gets my stuff.

So, no, it's not about morality, it's about survival.

Sam Colt's marketing slogan ("Equalizer") still holds. Pretty much any pre-firearm weapon, victory in a fight with equal weapons goes to the strong.

With guns, particularly handguns, the advantages -- to the strong, to the swift, and even to the well-trained -- are much reduced. Though all of those still help.

Equalizer, my ass. Equal is rock paper scissors. "Superior-izer" is what is intended to be conveyed. But the fig leaf of only striving to "equalize" the potential situation hides the fear of weakness.

It's just freakin stuff. You can get more stuff, but lose life, game over. I reckon that having surrendered faith and confidence to fear and doubt, that stuff is the next best thing to cling to.

Just to jump back on the swastika horse for a second, purloining a symbol from one cultural group to be used in other, perhaps devious, ways by another, is not the sole domain of the Nazis. The Christians, when they came across the Pagans "stole" many Pagan rituals of the Yule and the festival of Eostar, to name but two, to, ostensibly, convince the non-Christians of the day that they (the Chistians) were an enlightened bunch, and "Gosh, we can have all sorts of happy days as well. Why don't you celebrate ours and leave your nonsense behind." So, if the first group then tries to use those "purloined" rituals, are the meanings diminished in the eyes of the user? No, I think not. In fact, I think that using a symbol in the way it was originally intended can eradicate the secondary meaning because the primary meaning often makes more sense. For instance, why does the Christian world use the symbol of the bunny at Easter? Simple, it was originally a pagan symbol of fertility (multiplying into life), as was the egg, at celebrations held at about the same time as Christ's crucifixion day. Perhaps the origins of the svastik should be explored so that those still convinced that the new meaning is the only meaning will understand why it was used in the first place (I don't like the notion of posting links, so I won't ... let's just say, I went to google and looked for <<"hindu swastika" origins>> ... the first link it came up with (hinducouncil) was the most interesting). So, what's the point of my posting? Simply, that anyone can use symbols whether originally their own or someone else's. If a symbol has had a negative connotation, research it's origins. If the original meaning was positive, use the symbol in that positive light and the meaning may change for you. If not, try to be sympathetic to those who *have* been using those symbols for many years.
Cheerio

thanks Ross. I'm sure many who use a pentagram/pentacle in their current rituals will agree.

Welcome to the Cellar Ross.
You're spot on....it's not the symbol but the acts committed in it's name.