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   Undertoad  Tuesday Apr 26 12:43 PM

4/26/2005: Agent Orange victim



The official caption says Xuan Minh, 3, looks out from his bed at the Tu Du Hospital in Ho Chi Min city on Friday March 25,2005, suffering from what is believed to be the effects of the jungle defoliant Agent Orange, used heavily in the region by the U.S. armed forces during the Vietnam War. Vietnam celebrates the end of hostilities on April 30, 2005, marking 30 years since war in Vietnam ended.

Good God Damn. I don't always pick the deformities for IotD, you know, sometimes one just doesn't need to see that kind of crap. Sometimes it's just too easy, because deformities are always mind-boggling. What's mind-boggling to me, though, is that somehow Agent Orange is *still* a problem. We should have cleaned this shit up long ago. It's very sad.



Troubleshooter  Tuesday Apr 26 01:06 PM

If it's true...



perth  Tuesday Apr 26 01:09 PM

Snopes isn't sure:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/orange.asp



lookout123  Tuesday Apr 26 01:19 PM

shannon miller. 4th grade. every last hair on her body fell out. no other major health problems, but absolutely no hair growth ever again - at least until high school graduation when i last saw her.

the doctors tied that back to her father's agent orange exposure in viet nam. that was 1983-4 though. it's scary that things like this are still happening 20 years later.



wolf  Tuesday Apr 26 01:43 PM

Disturbing yes, particularly if the image is undoctored.

But unless the incidence of such birth defects is higher than expected in the general population, what's to say that it's not just run-of-the-mill mutation, rather than the hoped-for-because-we-can-sue-Dow-Chemical Agent Orange?

A friend's husband died of a rare cancer that was thought to be the consequence of his exposure to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He was not provable as a direct exposure victim, I'd think it's even more unlikely to be proven 38 years later.



jaguar  Tuesday Apr 26 01:45 PM

and other reasons monsanto is the devil.



YellowBolt  Tuesday Apr 26 05:06 PM

I don't know about you, but that image looks severely fake. The resolution on the face seems different than those on the rest of the picture...



jaguar  Tuesday Apr 26 05:29 PM

Snopes seems to think the image itself is real, looks real enough to me. It's nowhere near as bad as some of the agent orange deformaties I've seen.



staceyv  Tuesday Apr 26 07:53 PM

this one is awful.



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Apr 26 11:54 PM

Quote:
We should have cleaned this shit up long ago.
Might have if we'd won. Tough when you're driven out.
But how do you clean it up? Where is it? In the soil? How deep? You can't remove the soil without removing the trees. Would a thermo-nuclear device do it? Seems in 30+ years it must be in the water table by now.
How can you blame the chemical company that provides it to the military under contract? After all they were just supporting our troops, right? I doubt if the Mil Spec said anything about future children. It did however say it had to get the leaves off the trees Right Now. How many chemicals will do that?
Have to be some nasty shit to defoliate a jungle, Right Now.


Undertoad  Wednesday Apr 27 08:02 PM

Snopes now says True, and has additional disturbing images of the lad.



Catwoman  Thursday Apr 28 10:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowBolt
I don't know about you, but that image looks severely fake. The resolution on the face seems different than those on the rest of the picture...
I agree. That's how my badly managed photoshop attempts turn out - with a bit of distorted 'fizzle' around the modified area. The pose seems odd, too. But whether this one's true or not, there are still countless other deformities resulting from this and other chemical exposure so I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. Fascinating and sickening at the same time.


russotto  Thursday Apr 28 10:20 AM

The middle shot of the other photos snopes has appears to show another child with protruding eyes (but no conehead).



jaguar  Thursday Apr 28 10:38 AM

They knew how nasty that shit was when they dropped it.



Beestie  Thursday Apr 28 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguar
They knew how nasty that shit was when they dropped it.
I'm not so sure. I've seen (pics) and heard quite a few stories of servicemen clowning around and spraying it on each other. Now someone, somewhere might have known but its realistic to assume that it was merely rushed through developement without anyone ever bothering to ask. Not an excuse, just a plausible scenario.


jaguar  Thursday Apr 28 11:50 AM

I'm sure GIs and poliots didn't but scientists did and I'm sure those in charge of the program did as well.



wolf  Thursday Apr 28 11:59 AM

Still no proof this is Agent Orange. It could be one of 10,000 other chemical or radiological uses or spills.

Or mom could have smoked weed when she was pregnant.

No way of knowing at this point.

Sure feels good to blame the Americans again though, doesn't it?



warch  Thursday Apr 28 12:15 PM

Sure feels good to wrap yourself in flagwavin' defensiveness yet again, doesnt it.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Apr 28 12:22 PM

Occam's Razor cuts deep doesn't it?



wolf  Thursday Apr 28 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by warch
Sure feels good to wrap yourself in flagwavin' defensiveness yet again, doesnt it.
Fuckin' A right, Bubba.


jaguar  Thursday Apr 28 12:40 PM

I go to Vietnam on a fairly regluar basis, call it a certain connection to the issue.
Sure are defensive aren't you? Maybe this one isn't Agent Orange related but the chances are it is, the shit is all though the ecosystem from top to bottom, it doesn't go away - the dioxin concentration was insane. Must suck to be unable to face up to stuff your country did 30 years ago - all in the name of an absract policy.



warch  Thursday Apr 28 12:47 PM

And beyond the blame or nonblame fest, here's a kid caught. Are there ways that Agent Orange can be cleaned up from the supersite we call Vietnam? Can the concentrations be reduced?



Troubleshooter  Thursday Apr 28 12:49 PM

Is there a known genetic signature of the damage done by AO?



jaguar  Thursday Apr 28 01:16 PM

There are tests to some degree, they can test for levels of specific dioxins but they are very, very expensive. Stuff stays in the ecosystem for decades.



wolf  Thursday Apr 28 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguar
Must suck to be unable to face up to stuff your country did 30 years ago
I have no problem facing up to what my country did, whether it was 30 years ago, or more recently.

If it's the result of something we actually did.


Troubleshooter  Thursday Apr 28 02:18 PM

Um, it has been decades.

Has a study been done to show the long term occurances of deformities like this.

Is there a declining trend? A steady trend?



jaguar  Thursday Apr 28 03:36 PM

Quote:
I have no problem facing up to what my country did, whether it was 30 years ago, or more recently.

If it's the result of something we actually did.
You're contradicting yourself. Noone I've come across denies that Agent Orange and the fucking nasty dioxins it contained are responsible for the disturbingly high rates of cancer, birth defects, neural diseases and other problems in South Vietnam. The North was never really sprayed, rates there are normal.


melidasaur  Thursday Apr 28 04:12 PM

my question is... how does he close his eyes?



warch  Thursday Apr 28 04:16 PM

If there are no lingering dioxin related health problems based on documented actions, how come US Veterans who no longer have direct contact with the contamination have been legally recognized to receive compensation and health coverage specifically for Agent Orange related illnesses? While those who continue to live in documented US contaminated areas are suspect. That seems contradictory.



wolf  Friday Apr 29 01:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguar
You're contradicting yourself. Noone I've come across denies that Agent Orange and the fucking nasty dioxins it contained are responsible for the disturbingly high rates of cancer, birth defects, neural diseases and other problems in South Vietnam. The North was never really sprayed, rates there are normal.
No, I'm not. I'm NOT denying that Agent Orange is bad stuff, or that it has potentially long lasting consequences.

All that I'm saying is that until the sad little dude's issues are identified as being the result of dioxin exposure, beating up on the US as being the responsible party is not justified.


xoxoxoBruce  Friday Apr 29 05:10 AM

AGAIN, yeah, so what can we do about it??????



Troubleshooter  Friday Apr 29 10:01 AM

Well, the appropriate liberal response would be to file a class action suit on the part of all of the funny looking kids, give them all 15 million dollars, feel good about ourselves and then promptly forget about it.



wolf  Friday Apr 29 12:01 PM

The lawsuits for Vietnamese citizens have been filed.

The class action lawsuit on behalf of vietnam vets settled so fast (back in 1985?) that ONLY people who had designated themsevlves as part of the class could recover damages, and no one after that date is permitted to identify themselves as part of that class, and no one can initiate a new lawsuit on behalf of vietnam vets.



wolf  Friday Apr 29 12:11 PM

Oh, and Dioxin exposure tends to cause an assortment of particularly nasty and usually rare cancers, leukemia, and some skin rashes. In children exposed in utero or possibly resulting from contamination in male or female parent spina bifida is the most common, with some other conditions (Achondroplasia, Cleft lip and cleft palate, Congenital heart disease, Congenital talipes equinovarus (clubfoot), Esophageal and intestinal atresia, Hallerman-Streiff syndrome, Hip dysplasia, Hydrocephalus due to aqueductal stenosis, Hypospadias, Imperforate anus, Neural tube defects (including spina bifida, encephalocele, and anencephaly), Poland syndrome, Pyloric stenosis, Syndactyly (fused digits), Tracheoesophageal fistula, Undescended testicle, Williams syndrome)
being identified as qualifying vets for benefits if the condition is not congenital in his/her family.



BigV  Friday Apr 29 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldpress.org
Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."
http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.
before and after


BigV  Friday Apr 29 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldpress.org
Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."
http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.
[img=http://www.worldpress.org/images/121104_YushchenkoBeforeAfte.jpg]before and after[/img]


BigV  Friday Apr 29 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldpress.org
Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."
http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.



BigV  Friday Apr 29 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by worldpress.org
Who Poisoned Yushchenko?

Zornitsa Stoyanova-Yerburgh
Worldpress.org contributing editor
December 13, 2004
Yushchenko before and after his poisoning

Ukraine's opposition presidential candidiate Viktor Yushchenko before and after his poisoning.

Austrian doctors have confirmed that Ukraine's opposition presidential candidate Victor Yushchenko has been poisoned with dioxin. The highly toxic substance was ingested orally and was probably given to him by a "third party."
http://www.worldpress.org/Europe/1995.cfm

Perhaps not Agent Orange, but dioxin.




busterb  Friday Apr 29 03:16 PM

By God! Big V, You do try to get your point across.



BigV  Friday Apr 29 03:21 PM

*ahem*

Thanks busterb, I wrestled with the image link and didn't notice that the "rough drafts" were still posted. Sorry for the wasted resources.



BigV  Friday Apr 29 03:21 PM

*ahem*

Thanks busterb, I wrestled with the image link and didn't notice that the "rough drafts" were still posted. Sorry for the wasted resources.

deleted mistakes now.



wolf  Friday Apr 29 04:15 PM

You missed one ...



warch  Friday Apr 29 04:42 PM

Well, the appropriate liberal response would be to file a class action suit on the part of all of the funny looking kids, give them all 15 million dollars, feel good about ourselves and then promptly forget about it.

No. I think the appropriate liberal response would be to investigate the claims further ( a lawsuit is obviously neccessary to demand governmental and corporate attention), build a working relationship with the Vietnamese on this issue that strives to move beyond political games, respond with justice and compassion to the afflicted- including any Vets still suffering, to those found to have been made ill by our toxic dump or those at continuing risk, this compassion taking the form of funding internationally collaborative healthcare support, environmental education, and cleanup as possible. The appropriate liberal response I think, is rational and civil.



wolf  Friday Apr 29 04:43 PM

Is that before or after the traditional knee jerk reaction?



warch  Friday Apr 29 04:50 PM

Apparently, decades after.



glatt  Friday Apr 29 05:07 PM

If ever.



xoxoxoBruce  Friday Apr 29 07:14 PM

Since nobody seems to have a way to clean it up, and it doesn't appear to be abating, the obvious solution is relocating. I suggest Texas.



LCanal  Friday Apr 29 09:38 PM

Untill then I'll look forward to a remake of John Candy's ConeHeads



Clodfobble  Friday Apr 29 10:12 PM

Texas already has the second-highest population of Vietnamese, after California. 134,961 as of the 2000 census.

41% of those are in one county (aka Houston.)

Seems someone already thought of it.



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Apr 30 06:24 AM

Yeah, I remember the shrimp wars when they first got here and doubled the size of the shrimp fleet. That's why I thought Texas would be perfect with all that support group in place. I think Minnesota has a bunch too, IRRC?



jaguar  Saturday Apr 30 06:31 AM

that's chloracne BigV. Can come on bloody fast to depending on exposure level, a bit like radioation sickness. IIRC big, old transformers had craploads of that stuff for coolant.
I'll quote myself wolf:

Quote:
Maybe this one isn't Agent Orange related but the chances are it is
Dow and monsanto settled for a paltry 128m total, new claims have no *nowhere*.

Quote:
I suggest Texas.
They've suffered enough.


xoxoxoBruce  Saturday Apr 30 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaguar
that's chloracne BigV. Can come on bloody fast to depending on exposure level, a bit like radioation sickness. IIRC big, old transformers had craploads of that stuff for coolant.
PolyChlorinated Biphenol, not only transformers, all kinds of industrial and commercial oils were loaded with PCBs. That's why industrial sites, Railroad yards and Electric Company service yards are popular toxic fund cleanup sites.


OnyxCougar  Sunday May 1 07:30 PM

Weren't we asked by South Vietnam to come help repel invasion from North Vietnam?



LCanal  Monday May 2 05:31 AM

It must be true 'cause it made it to the BBC. Well mostly true then...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4494347.stm



busterb  Monday May 2 09:51 AM

Damn that sounds like cancer alley



xoxoxoBruce  Monday May 2 08:04 PM

BBC Story lead in;

Quote:
Thirty years after hostilities ended between the US and Vietnam, relations remain strained by one of America's most notorious weapons during the war, the chemical Agent Orange.
Not to strained to request Boeing to build a plant there.


LCanal  Monday May 2 09:10 PM

Probably true I don't know the history.

That's the irony. Just as the Brits went to Northern Ireland originaly to protect the catholics from protestant violence.

Iraq is just getting started.



tw  Tuesday May 3 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by warch
No. I think the appropriate liberal response would be to investigate the claims further ( a lawsuit is obviously neccessary to demand governmental and corporate attention), build a working relationship with the Vietnamese on this issue that strives to move beyond political games, respond with justice and compassion to the afflicted- including any Vets still suffering, to those found to have been made ill by our toxic dump or those at continuing risk, this compassion taking the form of funding internationally collaborative healthcare support, environmental education, and cleanup as possible. The appropriate liberal response I think, is rational and civil.
There is a small problem with the assumption that that genetic defect is traceable to Agent Orange. Even the Admiral who was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs (during Vietnam) believed Agent Orange killed his son. But making specific proof has been elusive.

First, not all Agent Orange contained dioxin. When made correctly, Agent Orange had no dioxin. But many companies (including one in the same county as The Cellar) made the stuff. Not all made it correctly. The amounts of dioxin vary significantly and do not exist in all locations treated by Agent Orange. Therefore many locations where dioxins did not exist are still blamed for health and birth defects.

It gets more complex. For example, a recent study demonstrated how large doses of toxins cause no adverse problems whereas low (minisucle) doses can cause genetic defects. This only complicates a problem in courts.

Yes, there is a statistical relationship between Agent Orange and those health problems. Which ones? No one can say. Even the Admiral could not establish a relationship between Agent Orange and his son's death even though he tried. The problem is the science. A direct relationship between a specific health problem and dioxin currently does not exist.

Pictured is what dioxin did the Yushchenko. Why were the Austrian doctors originally so mystified by his health problem? Because what dioxin does still is not well understood. This poisoning was only discovered in two or three 'not well circulated' papers in Russia (which is why Russian involvement was suspected). Specialists from U of VA eventually uncovered a link between dioxin and the previously unknow health problem. No matter how much one is sure that dioxin must be the source of so many Vietnam birth defects, unfortunately, science still does not understand what dioxin does nor what diseases can result.

The world is ternary. Arguements made here are based upon binary logic. Yes, there is a statistical relationship between dioxin and health defects. But the law demands that a defect must be specifically attached to a source. Unfortunately, a direct relationship between low level dioxin exposure and the resulting health problems have never been established. Not established even by those who desperately wanted to find those relationships. Tragic? Yes. But the emotion attached to a tragedy does not make fact. The courts need facts.

As the frog demonstrates, science did not understand that lower levels of a toxin can sometimes be more lethal. Still unknown are reasons why this is so. Science also was mostly unaware of a relationship between dioxin and what Yushcenko suffered. Major talent was recruited to save Yushchenko's life.

In a ternary world, the relationship between Agent Orange and specific genetic defects remains in neither the Yes or No categories. In science, the relationship remains in the column entitled "unknown".

The one fact we do know - some applications of Agent Orange appear to be statistically related to health and birth defects. Details still remain unknown.

A very good case could be made for a government conspiracy to coverup the Agent Orange story. However, where are all the employees of those Agent Orange factories who should have also suffered? Too many questions remain to make a case in court.


tw  Tuesday May 3 02:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxCougar
Weren't we asked by South Vietnam to come help repel invasion from North Vietnam?
Read David Halberstam's "Making of a Quagmire". In particular is the battle of Ap Bac in December 1962. The S Vietnamese government's #1 fear was not communist insurgents (the Viet Cong). It was an coup d'etat by their own people. If a unit commander lost equipment while fighting communists, he could even be reprimmanded. Equipment that was stationed first and foremost to protect the S Vietname government from its own people.

Those who saw Vietnam in black and white never understood what David Halbersham warned in his 1964 book. Halberstam turned out to be right - in spades. But few even read the Pentagon Papers. To the ill informed, Vietnam was about stopping communism. Not really - at least from the perspective of the S Vietnamese government. For if it was true, then why was the Vietnam Declaration of Independence an exact copy of the US Declaration of Independence. For if it was true, then why did Ho Chi Minh send five letters to the US president asking that Vietnam be made a protectorate of the US - just like Philippines.

Those who see the world in simplist terms never really understood why America wasted so many lives in Vietnam. Making of a Quagmire is a lexicon of American culture because of this book. The domino theory was how politicans promoted their agenda to an American public who finally comprehended the real problem after 1972.


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