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   Undertoad  Saturday May 7 01:05 PM

5/7/2005: Soldier comforts dying Iraqi girl



The entire first-person story

Quote:
Major Mark Bieger found this little girl after the car bomb that attacked our guys while kids were crowding around. The soldiers here have been angry and sad for two days. They are angry because the terrorists could just as easily have waited a block or two and attacked the patrol away from the kids. Instead, the suicide bomber drove his car and hit the Stryker when about twenty children were jumping up and down and waving at the soldiers. Major Bieger, I had seen him help rescue some of our guys a week earlier during another big attack, took some of our soldiers and rushed this little girl to our hospital. He wanted her to have American surgeons and not to go to the Iraqi hospital. She didn't make it. I snapped this picture when Major Bieger ran to take her away. He kept stopping to talk with her and hug her.

The soldiers went back to that neighborhood the next day to ask what they could do. The people were very warming and welcomed us into their homes, and many kids were actually running up to say hello and to ask soldiers to shake hands.

Eventually, some insurgents must have realized we were back and started shooting at us. The American soldiers and Iraqi police started engaging the enemy and there was a running gun battle. I saw at least one IP who was shot, but he looked okay and actually smiled at me despite the big bullet hole in his leg. I smiled back.

One thing seems certain; the people in that neighborhood share our feelings about the terrorists. We are going to go back there, and if any terrorists come out, the soldiers hope to find them. Everybody is still very angry that the insurgents attacked us when the kids were around. Their day will come.



wah  Saturday May 7 02:14 PM

Wow.

I hadn't seen the larger version of this.

Wow.



wolf  Saturday May 7 02:50 PM

This is indeed a striking picture. I saw a much smaller version of it this morning and my first thought was that it would make a good IOTD. Seems that I was right, but not fast enough on the draw to get it to you ...

Speaking of which, I've sent along a couple, but don't know if they ever made it to you. What's the best address to send IOTD candidates to?



xoxoxoBruce  Saturday May 7 02:53 PM

God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It.



Undertoad  Saturday May 7 02:55 PM

probably undertoad hat cellar dot org these days.

I really want to build a submission thingie some day, but you know.



Trilby  Saturday May 7 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It.
My sentiments, exactly. This pic also reminds me of the Oklahoma firefighter holding that baby girl who died in the Ok. City bombing. Evokes the same feelings, too.


wolf  Saturday May 7 04:23 PM

I think part of what makes this an effective picture is that because we don't see any easily identifiable part of the child, it makes her all the children.

I remember Bayley Lee Almon too, and did think of her when I saw this picture, her and numerous other innocent victims.



capnhowdy  Sunday May 8 08:11 AM


My biggest problem with these cowardly car bombers: They do their twisted deed and kill themselves instead of giving us the pleasure of retribution. If only we could capture them live..........then we could take them to Paris Island, S.C. and turn them loose for graduating Marines to hunt down like the goddam sickass dogs they are. It would be great practice for the recruits and at least some justice (however minute) could be served. That would transform their completely worthless carcasses into almost completely worthless carcasses.
How fuckin selfish of those bastards.



Undertoad  Sunday May 8 02:02 PM

The girl's name was Farah.



Troubleshooter  Sunday May 8 03:10 PM

A friend and I were waiting for Sahara to start at the theater and we were discussing whether we belonged in other countries doing what we're, ostensibly, doing. In most cases, no, we don't belong there, but there are times, and I'm not a person of extravagant sentimentality, when it's time for some people, and possibly a whole people, to try the next turn of the wheel.

Rwanda, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Kosovo, Iraq, any people where there is such a disconnect from humanity that it allows such actions just... need... to... go... away...



Leah  Sunday May 8 08:23 PM

What a sad photo, I feel very sorry for that soldier having to see all these horrible killings. Get those bastards.



Catwoman  Monday May 9 09:41 AM

Children die in legal wars, too.



Beestie  Monday May 9 09:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwoman
Children die in legal wars, too.
True, but not usually by the hand of their own countrymen. Of course, Saddam's regime was known to torture toddlers to make their parent's talk.


Catwoman  Monday May 9 10:41 AM

I was more pointing to the iniquity of people who kill children than pointing fingers.



magilla  Monday May 9 12:48 PM

Damn all wars

There have been some pretty amazing, disturbing, humorous, and emotional photos here. I have looked at every single IotD in the archive.

None of them made me weep- until now.



tw  Monday May 9 12:57 PM

I cannot get sad about this. My sadness was expressed some years ago when I was so adamently opposed to this war. Anyone who supported the president in unilaterally attacking Iraq should have no right to be sad. We created these pictures many times over when we attacked another sovereign nation. And we know this will only get worse as long as Americans remain in Iraq. That too being the lessons of history.

I was sad about this little girl or her peers long ago. But we attacked Iraq anyway. If you advocated war as the president did, then you expect this picture hundreds of times more. Otherwise you were just lying to yourself. The time to be sad for this girl was back in 2002. This because America attacked a sovereign nation without even any plans for the peace. The actual death therefore being a foregone conclusion.



mrnoodle  Monday May 9 03:01 PM

yep. the last thought in that bomber's mind was "how dare they attack our sovreign nation? george bush has forced me to blow up a crowd full of children. if only they had let the UN continue to appease us, none of this would've happened. allah be praised."

[edited a diatribe about brainwashed michael moore followers]



jaguar  Monday May 9 03:14 PM

Quote:
yep. the last thought in that bomber's mind was "how dare they attack our sovreign nation?
Er, yea, probably. With something islamic thrown in.


Troubleshooter  Monday May 9 03:26 PM

That would be "Allahu Ackbar!"



dar512  Monday May 9 03:28 PM

Well, TW, maybe you've used up all your sad. But I haven't. I was against the Iraqi invasion from the start and every friggen day there's some news from Iraq that makes me sadder still.



mrnoodle  Monday May 9 03:40 PM

jaguar, i'm betting you're wrong. i think they're mindless thugs who prefer carnage over peace, and only use nationalist sentiment as an excuse to kill, maim, and destroy. you obviously think they're quite a bit more magnanimous. I think the picture proves my point, not yours.

they're killing their own children. they're killing people standing in line for jobs. they deliberately target civilians because they're fucking evil. the idea that terrorism is acceptable political protest will one day be shown for the BS that it is (hopefully with the rest of liberal dogma)



lookout123  Monday May 9 03:52 PM

oh shut up MRN! it is BS, capitalist, white man, verbal vomit like yours that forces otherwise peaceful people to become carbombers. only by blowing up their children and those looking for work can they teach us the lesson we've been begging for with our imperialist quests!
don't you get it?!?!?!

*zips ups flame suit while sprinting towards the door*



warch  Monday May 9 04:05 PM

Wha!?! Terrorism is "acceptable" political protest = liberal dogma? I will have to disagree with that blazing slander.

What these insurgents are doing is hideous. you mistake attempts to understand why this evil has manifested with excusing its existence, justification. There are reasons why this evil has surfaced and it would be wise to be aware of them and counter them as well as the bombers. And if you think the solution is as simple as wacking them back hard....you are an ass of whatever political leaning who doesnt appreciate the complexity of this situation.

This photo is a powerful weapon for our side.



warch  Monday May 9 04:27 PM

Mr. Noodle, you need to get out more.



magilla  Monday May 9 04:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jw
I cannot get sad about this. My sadness was expressed some years ago when I was so adamently opposed to this war. Anyone who supported the president in unilaterally attacking Iraq should have no right to be sad. We created these pictures many times over when we attacked another sovereign nation. And we know this will only get worse as long as Americans remain in Iraq. That too being the lessons of history...
I actually don't think you mean this. I think there's almost no one who won't be saddened at this image. I understand what you mean, though, since I also was completely against this optional, worthless war from the very start. But you'd almost be inhuman to not be affected by this image. I won't go so far as to say this death was our fault, but I know thousands of innocents have been killed by our actions.

As for the other---

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
jaguar, i'm betting you're wrong. i think they're mindless thugs who prefer carnage over peace, and only use nationalist sentiment as an excuse to kill, maim, and destroy. you obviously think they're quite a bit more magnanimous.
You could not be more wrong. These are not mindless thugs. Mindless thugs might plant bombs and run off, but they won't blow themselves up in the process. These are religiously motivated fanatics who are opposed to everything the US stands for and does-- including unilaterally invading a country that was not threatening us. They sure as hell want us completely out of the Middle East. You can go on calling them mindless thugs and you probably will, but until you understand what motivates them, you'll never stop them and you sure as hell won't beat them. Every one we kill has a son or a brother or a nephew or a daughter who'll get pissed off enough to strap a few kilos of Semtex to their chest and walk into a crowd. So unless you're advocating a little genocide with your morning coffee, you're not going to get anywhere (and genocide won't work either).

And this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
the idea that terrorism is acceptable political protest will one day be shown for the BS that it is (hopefully with the rest of liberal dogma)
shows just how intellectually and morally bankrupt you are. In case you missed it, it was not liberals who started this, not liberals who were frothing at the mouth and jumping up and down screaming "WMD! WMD!"; it wasn't liberals who conflated the 9/11 attacks with Saddam Hussein for months; it wasn't liberals who reached a decision to wage an optional war and then invented a reason to do so. As a matter of fact, when several million people (whom you'd probably call "liberals" but normal people would call "human beings") demonstrated against this travesty in dozens of spots all over the world, I don't recall a single bomb going off at any of those protests.

Chris

["Who the hell do they think they are, walking around on top of all our oil?" --Nameless Usenet poster]


wah  Monday May 9 04:36 PM

<i>they indocrinate their kids from the womb to kill themselves in the course of killing other innocents. </i>

Umm, this was an attack on a U.S. patrol (hence the U.S. soldiers being there, duh). The innocents, were, are, and will aways be, <i>collateral damage</i>.

<i>the idea that they are forced by our actions to resort to this kind of behavior is about 50 generations late.</i>

Right, because I remember hearing about bombs going off in Iraq nearly every day <i>before</i> we invaded.

I can't, honestly, wait until this 'greatest generation' of racists just withers off this planet, and those of us who can understand the common thread of humanity that runs through all our veins gets a chance to work for positive change without needed the threat and application of great violence to make progress.

Neocons. Can't live with 'em, *watch out* they've got their fingers on the trigger.

<i> strip away the layers of useless analysis, stop calling evil anything other than what it is: evil. it's unjustifiable under any circumstance.

microanalyzing someone who is willing to drop bombs in a mall is the most useless masturbatory pseudointellectual exercise in futility ever.</i>

no doubt, but I consider Bush more *misguided* than pure evil. Hey, but at least profits are up in the defense and oil industries. Woohoo! Profit!



tw  Monday May 9 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla
I actually don't think you mean this. I think there's almost no one who won't be saddened at this image. I understand what you mean, though, since I also was completely against this optional, worthless war from the very start.
I meant exactly what I posted - as usual in a bluntly honest tone.

You opposed the war. But was this the picture in your mind back in 2002? It was in my mind. Exactly. To currently be upset about this picture only demonstrates a total disconnect from what happens every day since George Jr declared "Mission Accomplished". An average of 50 acts of violence every day - and it will only continue.

FISHing. Throw a grenade into the house. Then charge in to discover if insurgents or just another innocent family has been killed. Good Morning Vietnam. We had to burn the village to save it. Specific lessons from Vietnam. A picture that saddens you today is to me equivalent to a death years ago. Sad. Of course. But her death (or someone just like her) is a forgone conclusion and happens every day.

We created these deaths. Do you think The Lancet was lying about 98,000 Iraqi civilian deaths as a result of American actions? She died by violence or due to other acts. No difference. Children are dying everyday because a president lied about Saddam, created the insurgency, and now lies about 'light at the end of the tunnel'. She is but another innocent victim when two evil forces - the American invaders and the insurgent - collide. She is what happens when people believe a lying president - Nixon or George Jr. Who never learned why the smoking gun is so critically necessary to justify war? Who never learned why the lessons of Sun-tzu were proven so often in history. Ignorance and denial years ago in America doomed this girl - or someone just like her.

Sorry. But I have long since resigned to this picture being a daily event because the US invaded illegally, without justification, and then created an insurgency. I cannot be sad every day. To be honest and be sad for this girl means I must be sad every day for two years past and for many years into the future. That is not humanly possible. Anyone sad for this girl today is either seriously depressed or has been in denial about many other dead girls created because George Jr lied. I am too much of a realist to think even for one minute that this picture and this dead girl is any different. I am resigned that this picture occurs every day in Iraq because America did not even bother to plan for the peace. I am long since past being sad the day I posted in The Cellar that this war was a forgone conclusion.

Magilla - ask anyone here how adamantly and almost singly I had argued that this war was completely wrong. But then I was thinking about pictures just like this one - another death without purpose but created in the greater glory of George Jr. I cannot be sad for something that was a forgone conclusion years ago - as taught even by the lessons of history.


warch  Monday May 9 04:38 PM

What about this girl. Is she one of them?



lookout123  Monday May 9 04:39 PM

Quote:
(and genocide won't work either).
oh sure it will, if you try hard enough.


mrnoodle  Monday May 9 04:40 PM

so, right and wrong are simpleminded concepts and only through applying infinite layers of "complexity" to every situation can we find true enlightenment. garbage. strip away the layers of useless analysis, stop calling evil anything other than what it is: evil. it's unjustifiable under any circumstance.

microanalyzing someone who is willing to tie bombs to themselves and detonate them in a mall is the most useless masturbatory pseudointellectual exercise in futility ever.

And i'm not slandering anyone. liberals have a long and rich history of trying to blame every ill in the world on the united states. far from being open-minded, they have the strictest set of dogma this side of the 10 commandments, and they are as predictable as buttless leather pants at a gay pride parade. essentially, the left-wing playbook boils down to: "everything you've ever been told is wrong, because a white man came up with it"



jaguar  Monday May 9 04:41 PM

I considered replying properly but it's not worth the 5 minutes of my life, fuck off you clueless halfwit. A lot less 2000 years ago the forerunners of your fucking religion were slashing and burning their way though the middle east in the name of christ and they're still at it, you're in one serious glass house and you're throwing very big stones.You clearly have little or no understanding of the situation beyond what FOX feeds you today, I'd bet fairly good money you've never been to the middle east, hell, you probably haven't been out of the US. You're merely demonstrating just how fucking ignorant your ilk are.



lookout123  Monday May 9 04:45 PM

screw you whiteboy. now thanks to your bilge, i feel compelled to buy a little semtex.

*disclaimer: dear federal agents: i have no intention on following through on this thought.*



mrnoodle  Monday May 9 04:48 PM

lookout, i'm gonna pop an aneurysm. quitit.

magilla, they were mindlessly carving each other into sand-covered steaks 2000 years before the united states existed. they indocrinate their kids from the womb to kill themselves in the course of killing other innocents. the idea that they are forced by our actions to resort to this kind of behavior is about 50 generations late.

and i know liberals are human beings. but they're also dumb as fuck.



warch  Monday May 9 04:49 PM

Gets tricky when you're not sure who "they" really are. Your general "They" is not very helpful. Your defensiveness is blinding. No one is an angel, but there are evil doin's, This liberal goes on the record that the insurgents are evil. We've had our flashes too (see torture). But now, the US is stuck- Colin's old potterybarn riff. The trick is to be smarter, and that requires some analysis and strategy. And an ability to look critically at the situation and shift response when needed. Oh, and having the appropriate armor helps, too.

Oh and one more for this liberal record: Saddam is evil, too.



OnyxCougar  Monday May 9 05:17 PM

Iraqis were killing their own children before US went over there.

All that's different is that it's getting photographed now....



jaguar  Monday May 9 05:27 PM

Yes, all of them. They all stabbed their children to death at birth, I assume you read it was in the koran too, right?



mrnoodle  Monday May 9 05:29 PM

just having someone who is liberal also say "the insurgents are evil." without the usual leftist riders attached helps with the "defensiveness" (which is righteous indignation, thank you very much).

i'll flame up about dignifying those murderers with the term "insurgent" later.



warch  Monday May 9 05:37 PM

You're Welcome. Flame away. Do yourself justice.



magilla  Monday May 9 06:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
lookout, i'm gonna pop an aneurysm. quitit.

magilla, they were mindlessly carving each other into sand-covered steaks 2000 years before the united states existed. they indocrinate their kids from the womb to kill themselves in the course of killing other innocents. the idea that they are forced by our actions to resort to this kind of behavior is about 50 generations late.

and i know liberals are human beings. but they're also dumb as fuck.
Ah, and this is different from European history--how?

Once you replace the sand with loam, you can't tell the players without a program, bozo.


xoxoxoBruce  Monday May 9 08:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla
Ah, and this is different from European history--how?

Once you replace the sand with loam, you can't tell the players without a program, bozo.
And that makes it good?


Griff  Monday May 9 09:01 PM

We're on the same ground as before the war. Somehow Bushites are able to ignore the consequences of their policies while claiming others don't recognize evil. Amazing.



Happy Monkey  Monday May 9 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
magilla, they were mindlessly carving each other into sand-covered steaks 2000 years before the united states existed.
Which geographical area does this distinguish them from? Not Europe. Not Asia. Not North or South America. Not Africa. I guess Antarctica wins.


magilla  Monday May 9 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
And that makes it good?
Nope. But in my book, it disqualifies you from killing them for it.


wolf  Tuesday May 10 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by warch
This photo is a powerful weapon for our side.
All sides, actually. Whether you believe is US is good, terrorists are evil or the US is evil, terrorists are freedom fighters, the photo can be positioned to suit your agenda.


Catwoman  Tuesday May 10 07:12 AM

Well blimey, don't think I have much to add, other than

Evil does not exist as a tangible quantity innate in particular human beings and not in others. There is no FORCE forcing 'them' to commit acts we label as EVIL. Everyone has a choice. The choice to kill and maim is a choice 'they' see as a catalyst in achieving 'their' aims. Use of 'them' and 'their' implies ANY FACTION currently or historically using VIOLENCE and proclaimed EVIL acts with intention to assert their own means. This INCLUDES insurgents, freedom fighters and legitimate War Decision Makers. 'Liberals' believe there is a REASON behind the CHOICE. They seek this reason and seek to address it. The only difficulty is that the evident underlying reason is probably WRONG. Acts of sword are not born of a=a! Reductio ad absurdum leaps of logic cannot be solved by addressing the REASON. Less 'liberal' minds jump non sequitur into oblivion, claiming the lack of logical reason MUST BE 'evil'! Insanity! Such leaps of logic happen every day, and this is their natural conclusion. Next time you think your wife's cheating because she came back late you've started a war. Do you feel hard done byand righteously indignant? You've entered a religion. Do you leave her and enter a path of thoughtless self destruction? You've suicide bombed.



mrnoodle  Tuesday May 10 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey
Which geographical area does this distinguish them from? Not Europe. Not Asia. Not North or South America. Not Africa. I guess Antarctica wins.
It distinguishes them from all the countries that QUIT doing it once they got electricity.

But thank all of you for proving my "everything can be blamed on the white man" theory. Lib train's running right on time.


Happy Monkey  Tuesday May 10 01:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
But thank all of you for proving my "everything can be blamed on the white man" theory. Lib train's running right on time.
You seem to be becoming unhinged. What did I say about white men?


mrnoodle  Tuesday May 10 02:03 PM

hurried response while starting the day at work. in reference to the obligatory "yeah well what about the EUROPEANS" thing from magilla. cut-and-paste liberal response to any criticism of pigment-endowed humans. not the best example of it, though.



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday May 10 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla
Nope. But in my book, it disqualifies you from killing them for it.
Nonsense, it's the best reason...tradition.
Quote:
Evil does not exist as a tangible quantity innate in particular human beings and not in others.
Can't disagree more....I've know people that were pure, unadulterated evil. No socially redeeming quality whatsoever. Granted, they are rare...but the do lurk.
Quote:
There is no FORCE forcing 'them' to commit acts we label as EVIL.
Is there any force stronger than societal and/or family pressure? Especially in a society where a fall from grace means death literally as well as figuratively. Then add religion and the force be with you, like it or not.
Sure you could break free...leave the village...leave the country. But that's a pretty tall order for someone with limited money and education. Turning your back on your family and what they have believed for a milllenia, ain't easy even when you have the means. Of course you probably wouldn't get such a strange notion in the first place being contrary to the beliefs of everyone you've ever met.


magilla  Wednesday May 11 09:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoodle
hurried response while starting the day at work. in reference to the obligatory "yeah well what about the EUROPEANS" thing from magilla. cut-and-paste liberal response to any criticism of pigment-endowed humans. not the best example of it, though.
Ah, what a relief. Some things are as predictable as sunrise and sunset. For example, calling attention to hypocritical statements by neocons: "White-hating librull antimerkin SCUM!"

You need a new scriptwriter, noodle.


lookout123  Wednesday May 11 10:43 AM

oooooh...aaaaaah......he said "neocon".



Troubleshooter  Wednesday May 11 12:29 PM

*sniffs the air*Is that a new corollary to Godwin I hear approaching?



capnhowdy  Wednesday May 11 07:46 PM

[quote] " Leave us alone" [quote]........Cap'n Howdy..............



magilla  Thursday May 12 08:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
*sniffs the air*Is that a new corollary to Godwin I hear approaching?
That seems to have been coopted long ago (by Internet standards, anyway) when "liberal" became an insult.


Clodfobble  Thursday May 12 10:28 AM

Psst... hey magilla, in many circles liberal was always an insult. It's just that those circles happen to be in power right now so you actually get to hear them say it.



mrnoodle  Thursday May 12 10:39 AM

dangit, i missed a day. catch me up -- are we still on the "YOU guys suck. no, YOU guys suck." part?

friggin liberals. you guys suck.



Lady Sidhe  Sunday May 29 07:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It God Damn It.


I couldn't have said it better. Fucking BASTARDS! I don't understand how someone could justify that. They could've waited. It's a given that soldiers are going to be attacked...but anyone who would not care that innocent children would be hurt deserves to burn. And I don't mean in hell. I mean set those fuckers on fire ...then dump some white phosphorous on them just to make it worse. THEN throw them in a vat of salt. What, Allah's gonna say, "You got a kid with some of those soldiers...you get a special place!"?

fucking bastards!



Lady Sidhe  Sunday May 29 07:55 PM

Quote: "...they were mindlessly carving each other into sand-covered steaks 2000 years before the united states existed. they indocrinate their kids from the womb to kill themselves in the course of killing other innocents. the idea that they are forced by our actions to resort to this kind of behavior is about 50 generations late...."


Ok....I don't know if they were doing all that way back in the day. I don't care. The Middle East is drowning in religious fanaticism, and that seems to--for them--make killing ok. I do agree that the extremists are trained for suicide missions--after all, kill the infidel, go straight to heaven. And I do agree that we can't be blamed for what they do. We're not forcing them to kill children. They just don't care that children are around when they do their suicide thing. And that makes the suicide bombers lower than pond scum as far as I'm concerned.


I was in favor of the war--insofar as it involved cutting off the head of Osama and playing football with it...I'm glad we got Saddam. He needed to go. As to what's going on now--look, they need to get their shit together and work out a viable government that works for them so we CAN leave. We're not there for our friggin health. Our boys would LOVE to GTF out and come home. I mean, damn...they seemed to be thrilled to peices when we toppled Saddam. Time to rule yourselves, people. I know it isn't easy, especially when you've been under a dictatorship forever, but make an effort.




Sidhe



busterb  Sunday May 29 10:06 PM

Wonder how many of the ones sharing their wisdom about the middle-east have been there?



Troubleshooter  Sunday May 29 10:24 PM

I don't think that going to the Middle East is a requisite for understanding the situation on a basic level.

We know that the towers were knocked down. We had reliable, not infallible, as our gov't keeps reminding us in many differing ways, information as to who had done it. That sort of action should have been followed with a short, precise, and thorough action to capture and kill the person(s) responsible..

All of the rest we have been put through has been a waste and a sham.



busterb  Sunday May 29 10:36 PM

Right, but perhaps it would help to understand the poor butt hole who's rideing the donkey, or camel, if he has the money to afford one.



magilla  Monday May 30 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
I don't think that going to the Middle East is a requisite for understanding the situation on a basic level.

We know that the towers were knocked down. We had reliable, not infallible, as our gov't keeps reminding us in many differing ways, information as to who had done it. That sort of action should have been followed with a short, precise, and thorough action to capture and kill the person(s) responsible..

All of the rest we have been put through has been a waste and a sham.
Do I understand you correctly, TS? It was clear from the very first that Saddam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, but our current administration conflated the two until many people believed he did, and also believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were working together. Now Osama and the Taliban are another story. I supported the attacks in Afghanistan completely. As far as I was concerned, the Taliban were accessories before and after the fact to an act of war, so let 'em lie in the bed they made. I am furious that Bush threw all the good that was accomplished in Afghanistan into the toilet, along with a book some count as holy.


Troubleshooter  Monday May 30 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla
Do I understand you correctly, TS?
More to the point would be if someone attacks us, we take the time to find out who did it with a good degree of certainty and then bomb the shit out of them. End of campain.

If believable evidence shows anyone helped them, bomb them too.

By keeping things simple we maintain our credibility. Credibility is too valuable an asset to waste.


Undertoad  Monday May 30 01:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by magilla
Do I understand you correctly, TS? It was clear from the very first that Saddam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, but our current administration conflated the two until many people believed he did, and also believed that Saddam and Al Qaeda were working together.
Nope. You could find a Dick Cheney quote in which he speculates that on Meet The Press once, but that's about it given the months-long runup to the war, they simply didn't say very much at all about any connection, never mind "conflated".


xoxoxoBruce  Monday May 30 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubleshooter
Credibility is too valuable an asset to waste.
But you don't need credibity if you bomb EVERYONE.


Troubleshooter  Monday May 30 04:00 PM

"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

Which movie you monkeys?



Happy Monkey  Monday May 30 05:16 PM

Monkeys? OK.

Army of Darkness.



Undertoad  Monday Jun 6 08:47 AM

Here is a nice backgrounder on the gent who took the dying girl photo.



capnhowdy  Monday Jun 6 05:38 PM

Very enlightening link, U-Toad..................
An ancient observation: You had to be there.
Thanks



xoxoxoBruce  Monday Jun 6 09:49 PM

Yes, good read.



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