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   Undertoad  Monday Jan 30 04:59 PM

1/30/2006: Caning



Another day, another image of a man getting off on being inhumane and mean to a woman. In this case it's official policy though. It's Indonesia, where they have Islamic Sharia law, which takes its rules from the Quran. This woman is charged with the offense of staying in the same house as her boyfriend. She's taken in front of the Mosque and beaten for all to watch.



lumberjim  Monday Jan 30 05:02 PM

...and then.....the bukake



ferret88  Monday Jan 30 05:13 PM

um...why is the "cane-er" wearing a mask?



Trilby  Monday Jan 30 05:30 PM

And, what punishment does the boyfriend get? Oh, yeah, right. Nothing.

It looks as if a woman, on the right, is speaking into a microphone. One can only imagine what she is saying to the crowd.

i wonder if she's expected to kill herself now? Or, do they gang rape her first?



Griff  Monday Jan 30 05:32 PM

Canadas gonna love this.



Kitsune  Monday Jan 30 06:13 PM

So is this disturbing because it is punishment for something we don't consider a crime?
...because only the woman is punished?
...or because it is a public punishment?



Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 30 06:22 PM

Yes...



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 07:01 PM

In Christian history, women have had their heads chopped off for far less crimes than being in a house with another man.

I'm thinking Henry VIII type people who eventually - as we all know - start their own religions etc to get around rules which they find unfavourable.



Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 30 07:18 PM

I have a pet theory that Abrahamaic religions have a life cycle, based on centuries since founding...

I'm not sure what we will do when Mormonism gets to that point. Isn't that the most recent offshoot to a) claim a new prophet and b) survive?



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 07:23 PM

Everything goes in cycles HM. It's called 'The Circle of Life'. Haven't you watched 'The Lion King'?



footfootfoot  Monday Jan 30 07:45 PM

At first I thought that this post was about corporal punishment and then I tought: "You are too fucked up, what is your problem? It MUST be about decorative chair seat patterns, etc. and I thought I'd share a snapshot of an antique rush pattern that I have." So I clicked the link.

Her boyfriend is a complete balless ahole. I wonder what he was thinking about knowing what the punishment would be?

Dogma.



Clodfobble  Monday Jan 30 08:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by footfootfoot
I wonder what he was thinking about knowing what the punishment would be?
Probably, "Ah, we'll never get caught," just like she was. I mean, what sort of ball-less ahole risks unprotected sex, knowing what the punishment could be? Tons of 'em! And I even bet she'd rather be caned than be an unwed mother in her country.


Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 08:24 PM

maybe she was thinking, "I'm going to be in big trouble if someone finds out about this, but if I don't submit I will be hit/raped so I'll take my chances"



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 08:25 PM

maybe he was thinking, "This woman has been tempting me for a long time now. She must want me even though it's against the rules, and after all, she did say no one would find out"



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 08:29 PM

maybe neither of them were thinking? Maybe they're in love and he's already been punished? Maybe he's yet to be punished? Maybe she was trying to avoid an even worse situation elsewhere?

I don't think there are any black and whites in these sorts of cases. It's almost impossible for those of us from western societies to understand how some of these ancient societies really work or why the citizens of these countries allow these things to happen.

BTW, the emancipation of women in western societies is still a very new concept in the grand scheme of things.



Target  Monday Jan 30 08:31 PM

This is the sort of bullshit that Makes President Bush a hero of mine. All theocrats should be whacked.

Yep I'm definintely advocating a purge of Muslim leaders worldwide.



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 08:38 PM

Two generations ago it was a common cry by conservative and liberal parents alike that if you, 'spare the rod you'll spoil the child'.

If this was a quote from the bible (may not be but I think it is), then what makes one religious book more right when both are advocating corporal punishment? The only difference is that in this case, it's a grown woman who surely would have been consious of the consequences where-as with children, sometimes their understanding of consequence is questionable.

Please explain to me why Muslim leaders should be purged world wide? Surely you meant fundamentalists or extremists right?



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 08:40 PM

Of course I don't condone a public beating. The point I'm actually trying to make is that from our perspective, what's right and wrong is different. Just as from a Muslim perspective, a lot of what many Christians do or believe is wrong.

What gives us the right to judge?



tw  Monday Jan 30 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna
And, what punishment does the boyfriend get? Oh, yeah, right. Nothing.

It looks as if a woman, on the right, is speaking into a microphone. One can only imagine what she is saying to the crowd.

i wonder if she's expected to kill herself now? Or, do they gang rape her first?
And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. All part of the same joke.


busterb  Monday Jan 30 08:57 PM

It looks staged to me. I lived and worked in Sumatra back in 76. Also married a lady there. Never saw a caning, but heard tales about, No one lives after 100 licks because they split the cane and it takes a bite out each lick. Also don't get sent to jail if you have no friends, kin because food is not included. My wife had a white get-up like the one above, only worn for special prayer things. So maybe the lady is praying he dosen't beat the crap out of her? Whatda I know?



Karenv  Monday Jan 30 09:05 PM

No one said it was 100 strokes, and it is over clothing.

But people in fact do survive 100 strokes. They better have friends to bandage them up though.



warch  Monday Jan 30 09:12 PM

Human rights trumps tradition.



Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 09:17 PM

And every western or Christian society is totally free of sin as far as human rights are concerned?



Happy Monkey  Monday Jan 30 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target
This is the sort of bullshit that Makes President Bush a hero of mine. All theocrats should be whacked.
You'll have to line up behind the theocrats in his fan club.


Trilby  Monday Jan 30 09:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by busterb
My wife had a white get-up like the one above, only worn for special prayer things.
I wondered about that pure-white outfit, too. I'll bet each girl gets one on her tenth birthday from mom, "Honey, this is your very special white outfit. You'll wear it for your wedding, special prayers, and if you are ever caned in public."


footfootfoot  Monday Jan 30 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliantha
snip

What gives us the right to judge?
I'm thinkin' it must be an old habit. I have vague recollections of admonitions against it in the old testament. Maybe it was the new testament. Who can say?

Judging makes us feel good and right about ourselves. It helps us to bond as a group by uniting against "them".

The alternative, seeing something form someone else's point of view, is sometimes harrowing for people.

But, yeah, who does give us the right to judge? Depending on who you ask, it is usually their "god".


Aliantha  Monday Jan 30 10:48 PM

It's a paradox. You can't have good without bad. If there's no bad, then what is good? nothing! The only difference is perspective.



xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Jan 31 12:07 AM

At least the Puritans would strip them to the waist first.



wolf  Tuesday Jan 31 01:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey
I have a pet theory that Abrahamaic religions have a life cycle, based on centuries since founding...

I'm not sure what we will do when Mormonism gets to that point. Isn't that the most recent offshoot to a) claim a new prophet and b) survive?
I think that might be the 7th Day Adventists.

**********

Thanks to religioustolerance.org, I now know the following:

Mormon Church Founded: 1830. Joseph Smith had his first vision at age 13, in 1820.

7th Day Adventist Church Founded: 1863

Jehovah Witness Founded (Zion Watch Tower Tract Society): 1884

Unitarian Universalist Church Founded: 1961 (Unitarians and Universalists merged. Unitarian church was formed in 1638 in Transylvania. The first Universalist Church in the U.S. was formed in 1785, however there had been Universalist Churches in England as early as the 17th Century).

Looks like the UUs win on a technicality for youngest, but the JWs are really the winners. Of course I left out/ignored a lot of sects.

Great. I go back and check the site and of course NOW I find this lovely completed table of all this information.


Tonchi  Tuesday Jan 31 02:19 AM

What about the Moonies, Wolf? Sun Yoon Moon or whatever the fat little crook is named.


Never mind, in opening your chart I see they have him listed as the most recent cult leader. Rather strange to see the Moonies listed as Christians, though



gaidin  Tuesday Jan 31 02:27 AM

the lady in the back with the mic is freestyling.....i heard she's about to get a big record deal she's got the streets goin crazy



capnhowdy  Tuesday Jan 31 06:37 AM

Why don't she just refuse the beating? She is not bound in shackles. What would they do... lock her up? I would choose that before I'd let some masked asshole flog me in public. IMO this is just more evidence that these people are a bunch of brainwashed idiots. Thank God for the USA.



moonspider666  Tuesday Jan 31 08:21 AM

i glad i live in the good ol' USA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Kitsune  Tuesday Jan 31 08:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target
This is the sort of bullshit that Makes President Bush a hero of mine. All theocrats should be whacked.
My head nearly exploded on reading this.

Public punishment.
Corporal punishment.
Laws based on religious texts.

We're so fortunate to have a president in power who sides with groups willing to fight these awful ideals.


chrisinhouston  Tuesday Jan 31 08:50 AM

Interesting that she is wearing white, which we in the west associate with purity and virginity like in wedding dresses or little kids doing the first communion thing at church. Perhaps it is just white so that after the beating the crowd can see the blood soak through.

I quit being associated with any religion when I was about 17 or so. I got tired of all the BS rules. I got tired of all the stupid long church services, no meat on Friday, holy days of obligation, the stations of the cross, having to go to church in the morning on December 25th instead of opening my christmas presents instead like most of my friends. I got tired of atonement theology, being told that my sins were to blame for jesus getting killed like he did and all his suffering. I think what did it for me was that I had asthma as a kid and used to get soar throats alot. One Sunday, my parents insisted I go with them to mass because it was the feast of st. Blaise, the patron saint of throats. My mom insisted that if I would just go to church and have the priest splash holy water on my neck I would be cured of asthma and soar throats. And then there was the time that I misplaced my watch and my grandmother insisted that I should sit right down and pray to st. Anthony.

I think it was Karl Marx who said that religion was the opium of the masses.



Trilby  Tuesday Jan 31 08:56 AM

opium is also the opium of the masses.



mickja1  Tuesday Jan 31 09:46 AM

Permit me a small soapbox.

It's disheartening to read many of the replies here. The problem isn't with Islam or Judaism or Christianity, the problem is with man. We are naturally inclined toward evil. Isaiah said, 'the heart is desperately wicked, who can understand it?'

Even in our well-meaning attempts to please Allah or Jehovah or God we contaminate religion with our own sinfulness. That is how the Jews put Jesus on the cross. That is how the crusades happened. That is how a group of radical fundamentalists justfied bringing the World Trade Center towers down. That is how Chris is led to pray to a patron saint to help him find his watch. And that is how this woman is publicly beaten.

I object to the idea that moral right or wrong vary from one culture or religion to another. Now what is acceptable behavior varies, but moral law does not. Everyone is pre-programmed to know that Adolf Hitler was not a nice man. There is absolute truth, and it is specified clearly in the Bible.

The answer to our sinfulness is outside ourselves. It doesn't revolve around us being good and following rules, but in throwing ourselves at the feet of someone who has the authority and the gumption to forgive our sins past, present, and future. Jesus, as the holy son of God, has both the authority (he is God's son) and the gumption (he loves us).

God must punish sin to satisfy his holiness. He would not be a good God if he left sin unpunished. Think for a moment about the parents of a child who was raped and murdered. They need God to exact justice. This is an extreme example I know, but what would it say about God if he turned a blind eye to something like that? Well all sin is that offensive to God (who is holy).

The real mystery is that Jesus, in dying on the cross, took the *penalty* for all our sin. God is now free to lavish his love on us and satisfy his holy justice (Jesus after all bore the punishment for all of us) at the same time, to those who will 'repent' (come seeking mercy).

So you see any religion (even what passes for Christianity) that relies upon self effort (trying to live by rules to be better) is pointless. We can never be good enough, and we will eventually have to pay for our sins. The only religion I know of that doesn't rely on self is faith in Christ. That is the difference.

Soapbox speech complete.

As an aside, it is also amusing to observe that religious tolerance extends to all religions, except of course, Christianity. What is it about Jesus that still offends people today?



Promenea  Tuesday Jan 31 09:56 AM

Quote:
Christianity. What is it about Jesus that still offends people today?
All the proselytizing?


Trilby  Tuesday Jan 31 10:13 AM

Jesus does not offend me. (But a lot of certain) Christians offend me. Jesus taught no doctrine yet his cult loves to muck his message up with it.

Philip Yancey's THE JESUS I NEVER KNEW is a good example of one Christian trying to get this across.



chrisinhouston  Tuesday Jan 31 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickja1
As an aside, it is also amusing to observe that religious tolerance extends to all religions, except of course, Christianity.
Not me, I'm equally intollerant of all religions!

Actually, I wasn't trying to turn the thread towards a debate of theology but more so to say that I think for the most part all religions are stupid because of images like the one at the start of this thread. From what I get out of the picture of the lady who is about to get her ass whipped is that this particular religion's "holy law" says this lady is in deep shit for something that comes most naturally like being attracted to a person of the opposite sex which, humerously enough can be attributed to what god wants in the first place (don't foget that god also is supposed to hate homos, they tell us that in some other part of the holy books that all these religions claim are the one true word).

And incidentally the holy books and rules are mostly written by a bunch of men with beards a long time ago; ever notice how you never hear about any prophets being women, they are always men and the only women who get righteous get killed, kind of like Joan of Arc did. It doesn't seem to matter that it isn't very fair that the men who defame women mostly get off scott free and that women, who the holy books all claim to hold in such high esteem also get to have a good ass whipping or a good stoning or wear a scarlet A around their neck or have their family kill them to avenge the family honor.

I guess Yoko was right; "women is the nigger of the world."


Kitsune  Tuesday Jan 31 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickja1
The answer to our sinfulness is outside ourselves. It doesn't revolve around us being good and following rules, but in throwing ourselves at the feet of someone who has the authority and the gumption to forgive our sins past, present, and future.
The more I think about this, the more I realize I'm not familiar with any religion that operates this way. Christianity still requires you to "be good" and to follow the rules, just as does Islam as well as the slew of other major religions. Unless you subscribe to the "I'm going to profusely apologize on my death bed" ideal, my understanding is that it isn't as simple as this.

Some branches of Christianity even require you to be active in the word of god, to convert others, to even punish others so that you may be without sin. Many sects of Islam require its followers to not remain idle. These people still consider their answer to sin to be outside themselves, they just happen to see the answer in the "saving" of others. Preaching, beating, genocide. Saving others, acting out god's wishes, religious cleansing. All the same, really, to the people that do it.


mickja1  Tuesday Jan 31 10:21 AM

"All the proselytizing?"

Proselytizing = making someone conform to the rituals associated with a religion. An earnest Gentile convert to Judaism would proselytize to become accepted into their fold. No such need for proselytizing in Christianity (there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, free or slave).

Evangelizing (from the greek evangelizo) = to spread the good news. Why do Christians evangelize? They are firmly convinced they had found the way to salvation. If you had the cure to cancer but told no one, what kind of person would you be. That plus Christians are commanded to spread the good news by, of all people, Jesus: "Go and make disciples of all nations." (Matt. 28:19f.)



Undertoad  Tuesday Jan 31 10:27 AM

Quote:
If you had the cure to cancer but told no one, what kind of person would you be.
If you thought you could save that woman by beating her, and you didn't, what kind of person would you be.


mickja1  Tuesday Jan 31 10:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
If you thought you could save that woman by beating her, and you didn't, what kind of person would you be.
Yes, but I'm not beating her.


mickja1  Tuesday Jan 31 10:50 AM

a.) "Christianity still requires you to 'be good' and to follow the rules"

It's not about reliance on self. Christians try to please God by minding their own personal walk. There is no expectation unbelievers act like Christians, however we are called to act as "salt and light" to a lost world. LOOK AT HOW JESUS DID IT: He was truthful and confronted people about their sin, but was compassionate at the same time. This message is lost on all of us in varying degrees. Our hearts are spring-loaded to be self righteous, judgmental, "you're going to hell if you don't ____ (fill in the blank)" hypocrites.

Now 'being good' and 'following the rules' are not requirements to get into the kingdom of heaven (it is only that Christ saves you), but one must wonder if she has made a true profession of faith if there is no changed life. If God intervenes in your life you are going to become more like Christ over time. Read Romans ch. 6-7 to see what I mean.

b.) "Unless you subscribe to the 'I'm going to profusely apologize on my death bed' ideal, my understanding is that it isn't as simple as this."

Is a death bed confession truly a sign of repentance, or a desire instead to avoid the consequences of a life lived selfishly? More often than not I would argue the latter.

When you put your hope in Christ it is a future hope. You are in effect saying, on judgement day I will look to Christ for help. I will be found guilty, but Christ will take the sentencing (try and get your head around this--he already did!) and I will walk out of the court room a free man.

c.) "Some branches of Christianity even require you to..."

A lot of things are done under the name of Christianity that are man's contamination of the original elements of true saving faith. Keep in mind Jesus' first miracle in the book of Mark was casting out a demon-posessed man who was in church (what was a demon possessed man doing in church?)!

Hence the term "sola fide" (only faith), one of the prominent cries of the protestant reformation. There is such a need in our hearts to have rituals and rules. Again, a tendency toward self-governance. It is not about us, it is about what God does to rescue us from ourselves.



barefoot serpent  Tuesday Jan 31 11:06 AM

Let he, who be without sin, cast the first stone.

maybe that explains the mask?

...oops, wrong religion.



Kitsune  Tuesday Jan 31 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickja1
Christians try to please God by minding their own personal walk. There is no expectation unbelievers act like Christians
Okay, so it is safe to assume you are talking about people that are spiritual versus religious, correct?


chrisinhouston  Tuesday Jan 31 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickja1
We are naturally inclined toward evil.
Sorry but that's one idea I don't buy into.

I also have a problem with people telling me to read a certain passage out of the bible or the queran or some ancient holy text. That has about as much impact on me as if they said, "hey read the 3rd chapter of The Hitch Hikers Guide To The Universe and it will all be much clearer!"

As for christian intolerance, don't the jewish and muslim religions accept the fact that jesus was one of the prophets? They just don't think that he was "the one." Anyway, I know that Nemo was the one, I saw the movies!

Seems like christians used to interpret the bible and tell us that all those unbelievers were going to get torn to pieces in the end by devils from the underworld for all their sins and unrepenting, the whole hellfire and brimstone thing. All those unbelievers who perished in disasters like the tsunami? Toast. They had their chance!

Anyway, back to the image of the day... Wouldn't that be cool if someone would just Photoshop in Ken Lay's face on that of the woman? "Mr. Lay, the jury has found you guilty for all you did to wipe out all those Enron employee's life savings and you are going to finally get just what you deserve! Bend over!"


Elspode  Tuesday Jan 31 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Target
This is the sort of bullshit that Makes President Bush a hero of mine. All theocrats should be whacked.

Yep I'm definintely advocating a purge of Muslim leaders worldwide.
I officially volunteer to be the one that gets to whack Bush the Theocrat, then. Or am I the only one who's noticed that this is the way our government seems to be heading? Oh, wait...its alright for us to be a Theocracy since we believe in the One True God. Sorry.

Oh, and for the NSA guys who are reading this...I mean "whack" as in "to hit with a cane", as in the picture which leads off this thread. I do not mean "whack" as in to do away with in any way, shape or form.


wolf  Tuesday Jan 31 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonchi
What about the Moonies, Wolf? Sun Yoon Moon or whatever the fat little crook is named.


Never mind, in opening your chart I see they have him listed as the most recent cult leader. Rather strange to see the Moonies listed as Christians, though
Moonies are ostensibly Christian, with some added wierd beliefs regarding the divinity of Rev. Moon. It will be interesting to see whether the cult survives him.


wolf  Tuesday Jan 31 02:19 PM

In Christianity there is a difference between saying the words ("I accept Jesus as my personal savior," or similar) and saying them with sincerity and absolute truth. The intent behind the words is the key to salvation.



dar512  Tuesday Jan 31 02:34 PM

Salvation Army is a religion?



wolf  Tuesday Jan 31 02:42 PM

Yep. They do more than just run homeless shelters, thrift stores, and ring bells at Christmastime.

One of my college roommates was S.A.

I never quite figured them out, but they are good, dedicated people.



mlandman  Tuesday Jan 31 03:12 PM

hmm

Quote:
In Christian history, women have had their heads chopped off for far less crimes than being in a house with another man.
All sorts of stuff was done by all sorts of religions, a long long time ago. TODAY, most seem to be enlightened. Some refuse.


Trilby  Tuesday Jan 31 03:20 PM

Whenever somebody brings up the "a long, long time ago..." argument I just want to slap them. Yes, a long, long time ago things were different. For example, we didn't have penicillin! Or, sterile instruments! See, as human beings we are supposed to grow, become more enlightened, embrace learning and humanity. Just because a woman used to have her flippin head lopped off for sneezing in public and now is MERELY caned for ______ (fill in the blank) does not mean we have come a long way. I am pretty certain this part of the world, with it's religious overtone, is well documented as misogynist. It doesn't exactly make me want to run out and date a Muslim guy.*

*something my niece did. Then, after she converted (required) she married him. NOW she is repenting in leisure. She's repenting a LOT. The police are usually involved.



mlandman  Tuesday Jan 31 03:49 PM

Brianna, you misinterpret.

My point was in response to the person who was claiming atrocities were done in the name of Christianity a mere couple hundred years ago.

My belief (hey, as a Christian, perhaps it's biased. I'm trying not to be.) is:

In today's enlightened world....

* Humans do some pretty bad stuff, irrespective of one's religion. This includes people who are Christian, Muslim, insert-religion-here.

* Christians do not commit atrocities *in the name of Christ*.

* Muslim extremists (Not all who follow Islam. Extremists. Let's be clear.) DO commit what most would call atrocities, *in the name of Islam* (bigV will disagree).

So Brianna, my point was comparing activities in religion hundreds of years ago, with today. And today, Islam has some serious issues, whereas Christianity, in my opinion, doesn't engage in these atrocities.

That's my opinion.



Kitsune  Tuesday Jan 31 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlandman
In today's enlightened world....

* Christians do not commit atrocities *in the name of Christ*.
Why, it's Fun Trivia Time!
3,600 killings and assassinations over the past 30 years. Muslim or Christian?

Your answer, along with many other instances.

"Enlightened World", indeed.


Trilby  Tuesday Jan 31 03:57 PM

I was agreeing with ya, mlandman. I was talking about the blue-boxed text above your comment. Islam is a comparatively young religion. It appears determined to make it's own mistakes rather than learn from others.



Elspode  Tuesday Jan 31 04:56 PM

Ultimately, I don't think most conflicts have much to do with religion in the end. They are more about property, power, wealth and mind control than anything else. In the end, no matter which religion is dominant, the head guy is still the one with the most money, toys and women.



Promenea  Tuesday Jan 31 05:03 PM

Quote:
making someone conform to the rituals associated with a religion
When Christian leaders attempt to convince their followers to vote for representatives that want to make laws that regulate certain religious beliefs/behaviors then yes, I think I used the right word - proselytize . I'd be fine if all you folks would be satisfied with singing the praises of Jesus (just not on my doorstep-go tell someone who hasn't heard it already).


xoxoxoBruce  Tuesday Jan 31 05:58 PM

Why not?....every time I read about them I say, "Aw, fer Christ's sake".



Target  Tuesday Jan 31 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspode
Ultimately, I don't think most conflicts have much to do with religion in the end. They are more about property, power, wealth and mind control than anything else. In the end, no matter which religion is dominant, the head guy is still the one with the most money, toys and women.

It is all about greed indeed. Subjugation by religion is only a means to an end.

IMO The islamic 'holy warriors' are severely dishonorable in their tactics. Some people consider them desperate but they should consider that these people go home at night to make their familys unwitting human shields. Their lack of uniforms or orginization makes everyone around them targets also. It's not a question of wealth. These are some of the richest people per capita in the world. It's a question of courage and disregard for their peers.


capnhowdy  Tuesday Jan 31 08:47 PM

how the hell did this spawn from a picture of a woman getting her ass whipped?

This is wrong. Who needs religion to see that?



Troubleshooter  Tuesday Jan 31 09:05 PM

Oh stop acting like this is just an islamic problem, let's not forget the rule of thumb.



Aliantha  Tuesday Jan 31 09:39 PM

Quote:
In todays enlightened world...
What does this statement mean, and where is it comming from? Whose perspective is it from? What is their background? Why do they say these words? What part of the world is enlightened? What IS enlightened?

I may be wrong, but I'd say it's a statement comming from a person who lives in one of the worlds wealthiest countries who has access to all the rudiments of 'enlightened' society and whose position in that society has been formed through attitudes of colonialism (is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory and people outside its own boundaries, often to facilitate economic domination over their resources, labor, and often markets under the guise of emancipation) and social darwinism since birth.



It's all a matter of perspective.


fargon  Wednesday Feb 1 03:09 AM

If someone grabbed Mrs. Fargon and started to beat her they would be dead. I can see no other reason to wipe these people off the face of the earth than pictures like this.
Jesus will do that upon his return.



Jordon  Wednesday Feb 1 03:39 AM

Any culture based on the debasement and enslavement of women needs to become extinct. Islam is a cancer.



Sundae  Wednesday Feb 1 04:36 AM

There are plenty of people in middle England who believe caning should be brought back in schools. There are those who go further and believe that flogging criminals ("the birch rod") would benefit the country and bring down crime rates. And in polls, a small majority of the country would like to see the death penalty returned as they believe it is an effective deterrant.

Surely if you live in a country that either has, or would like to have the death penalty you shouldn't be shocked at a sliding scale which involves someone fully clothed being hit with a stick?

The person in the picture has broken the laws of their religion and therefore the law of the land. Why does a picture of them receiving their punishment provoke outrage? If the subject were male and had keyed someone's car, would people still be suggesting that the country needed to be wiped out like a disease?



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Feb 1 05:14 AM

Yes.



Aliantha  Wednesday Feb 1 05:17 AM

Someone I used to know keyed another woman's car because they got into it over a parking space at the supermarket.

Ever since then I've been very polite when it comes to who gets what space.



Trilby  Wednesday Feb 1 07:30 AM

It makes me mad to see someone being beaten simply for acting like a human being. She has a boyfriend, she wanted to be with him, perhaps yearned for him, and got caught acting on her natural emotions of wanting to be with him. She is really being punished for having love/sex feelings--a natural thing. Her evil female-ness must be subjugated and therefore, she is beaten. She is beaten for having a woman's heart. When countries treat the other half of their population like this, it makes me mad. Probably because I am a woman. Anyway, it's wrong to beat people, the law or culture be damned. Couldn't the punishment be that she has to make 1,000 pots of rice or something?



Aliantha  Wednesday Feb 1 07:42 AM

That's a lot of rice...



joelnwil  Wednesday Feb 1 08:20 AM

This is why I have nothing but contempt for Muslim societies. It is easy to say something like "it's just their culture", but a culture can change.

Back during the period of the civil rights struggles in this country, whenever I said something bad, but true, about the white trash society and government in the South, somebody would say "It's not their fault. They were just raised that way."

But people can change. Besides, it is not as if there were no mention of any alternatives. In the South, there were people working for civil rights. The alternative was there, so the choice could be made.

The same is true of Muslim societies. They know that they treat women differently from most of the rest of the world. The alternative is there.

My son installs dish antennas. When he is called to a Muslim house, he is often not allowed even to speak to the wife. Not even to ask if the picture is clear. The husband will get angry if he asks that question.

And this is in this country, where alternatives are obvious.

Of course, some Muslim women, such as those that work with my wife, are emancipated. But not with any help from that religion. In fact, they are not practicing Muslims at all.



chrisinhouston  Wednesday Feb 1 08:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundae Girl
Surely if you live in a country that either has, or would like to have the death penalty you shouldn't be shocked at a sliding scale which involves someone fully clothed being hit with a stick?
No, we are a civilized country. We could never condone a punishment for a criminal like giving them a beating, we just lock them up and look the other way when the other prisoners give them a beating and gang rape! That's justice served!


Kitsune  Wednesday Feb 1 09:16 AM

We last publically executed a person in 1936 and every time I hear of a sex offender/murderer/gang member/etc on television it is followed up with discussions of public beatings/hangings. The preventive measures, many say, of the fear instilled in others would lower the crime rate.

Oh? They deserve it because the crime they commited was severe where this woman has done nothing wrong? Ahh...

But people can change. Besides, it is not as if there were no mention of any alternatives. In the South, there were people working for civil rights. The alternative was there, so the choice could be made.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that these people don't want to change even if given the option. Who are we to tell them they should or should not live their lives as they wish?



Sundae  Wednesday Feb 1 09:50 AM

From here

Quote:
An Acehnese man is flogged as part of his sentence for illegal gambling in the town of Bireuen, in the tsunami-hit province of Aceh, June 24, 2005. Indonesia carried out its first public canings on Friday, punishing 15 gamblers in front of a noisy crowd in tsunami-hit Aceh, the only province in the world's most populous Muslim nation to implement Islamic law. REUTERS
Obviously this is just following up on my previous post as to whether it is the gender, the crime or the punishment which people find offensive. In this case the gender and the crime have changed (okay, and the picture hardly qualifies as IOTD).

I haven't been able to find any details on the case in the OT, but it is possible - even likely - that the boyfriend also received 100 lashes.

Not all Muslim countries are grossly unfair to women and not all Muslim women are oppressed. Pakistan is a Muslim country that had a female head of state, something that the US has not managed yet.

Of course I appreciate that some nations and individuals are oppressive and violent towards women. And I accept that many of these people use their religion to justify this behaviour. But IMO it's blinkered to jump to the conclusion that this is the case worldwide and all Muslims' minds should be changed for them - by whatever means we deem necessary.


dar512  Wednesday Feb 1 09:57 AM

OK. Help me get this straight once and for all. Someone who has actually read the Koran - does the Islamic religion specify this subservient role for women, or is it the culture?



joelnwil  Wednesday Feb 1 10:14 AM

Pakistan is a mixed bag, as shown by those who shelter Bin Laden. In the picture, activists want to tear down the sign because the face of the woman is shown.

What would they think of Dame Edna?



Sundae  Wednesday Feb 1 10:15 AM

I haven't read it, but have been an interested listener in discussions with people who have. I'd be interested in the opinions of anyone who has first-hand knowledge of course.

Women are required to be modest, and men are definitely the head of the household. Women whould be treated with compassion and understanding, but in general they are viewed differently to men and subject to different treatment. This should not make them second class citizens however.

Of course St Paul had some of the same views (from Ephesians 5 for example): Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.



magilla  Wednesday Feb 1 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspode
I officially volunteer to be the one that gets to whack Bush the Theocrat, then. Or am I the only one who's noticed that this is the way our government seems to be heading? Oh, wait...its alright for us to be a Theocracy since we believe in the One True God. Sorry.

Oh, and for the NSA guys who are reading this...I mean "whack" as in "to hit with a cane", as in the picture which leads off this thread. I do not mean "whack" as in to do away with in any way, shape or form.
Nope, Elspode, I am with you on this one. Bush wears the mantle of religion but seems to be one of the least "Christian" presidents I've seen. I also fear the way we seem to be heading down the theocracy trail. It boggles the mind to hear so many people howling about "taking the Christ out of Christmas" or some such nonsense, as though Christians are a persecuted minority here. Many of them seem to think that if they cannot have their religion out in public, on public property, and everyone exposed to it 24/7, that somehow infringes on their rights.

I would also point out that Bush has not had a lot to say about Islam in general. Notice how careful he is when he talks about Islamic terrorism: it is always the Fundamentalists who "twist Islam" etc. (although they are the ones blowing things up). He sure would not want to offend his cronies in Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Kuwait, or the Emirates!

Chris


chrisinhouston  Wednesday Feb 1 11:15 AM

Found this at the BBC archive from June 2005:

Aceh gamblers caned in public:

Fifteen people were caned for gambling offences outside a mosque in the town of Bireuen on Friday.

Aceh implemented partial Sharia law in 2001, as part of an autonomy deal offered by the Jakarta government. The province has a higher proportion of Muslims than other areas of Indonesia, and many Acehnese practice a stricter version of Islam.

The 15 men were flogged with a rattan cane on a specially-constructed stage in front of the Grand Mosque following midday prayers on Friday. Another 11 people are due to be caned at a later date.

According to reports from the scene, the event was more of a festival than a punishment exercise. According to a BBC reporter in Bireuen, Maskur Abdullah, crowds of people, including children, watched the proceedings - cheering and booing as the culprits were brought onto the stage to receive their punishments.

One of the convicted men even faced the crowd afterwards and showed told them he had felt no pain, our reporter says.

On Thursday Bireuen's district chief Mustafa Geulanggang explained why the authorities had decided to implement caning as a punishment.

"It's not about pain," he told the BBC. "The aim is to shame people and deter them from doing the same criminal acts in the future."


Kind of reminds me of old skectes and paintings of beheadings in England and France or perahps a public flogging there; all the peasants gathered around in a party like atmosphere. The sad thing is that statistically speaking, punishments like this or even the death penalty have little effect in crimes of passion or in the heat of the moment.



xoxoxoBruce  Wednesday Feb 1 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundae Girl
Not all Muslim countries are grossly unfair to women and not all Muslim women are oppressed. Pakistan is a Muslim country that had a female head of state, something that the US has not managed yet.
You make that sound like a bad thing.


Aliantha  Wednesday Feb 1 06:50 PM

A lot of people here seem to be of the opinion that even if it's the culture to blame rather than the religion, that people from these countries should be forced somehow to change.

I suppose that's all ok except; what makes it your business? Would any of you appreciate someone comming to your country and telling you how to live your life? Would you like it now? Would you have liked it two hundred years ago when slavery was still the fashion?

When children play, how many mothers here have heard their child arguing with another but has refrained from intervening because they know that sometimes children need to sort things out for themselves?

I agree, cultures change and also that perceptions and interpretations of holy books change or are different from place to place. I don't agree that any of us can sit in our comfortable chairs and think we have a right to say how another culture/religion/country should be run. This is the 21st century. Has the western world learned nothing from past mistakes?



mitheral  Wednesday Feb 1 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonchi
Never mind, in opening your chart I see they have him listed as the most recent cult leader. Rather strange to see the Moonies listed as Christians, though
They self identify as Christian.


Happy Monkey  Wednesday Feb 1 11:55 PM

Probably for marketing purposes, like the Scientologists' claim that you can still be Christian and a Scientologist.



Troubleshooter  Thursday Feb 2 08:40 AM

They identify as xtian so they can donate to the republicans.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/20.../index_np.html

Bad Moon on the rise
Overcoming his church's bizarre reputation and his own criminal record, the Rev. Sun Myung Moon has cemented ties with the Bush administration -- and gained government funding for his closest disciples.

...more...



xoxoxoBruce  Thursday Feb 2 07:38 PM

Although I'm not surprized, it makes me sick.
I think this is just another example of Bush trusting the scum around him.



footfootfoot  Thursday Feb 2 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlandman
snip
* Christians do not commit atrocities *in the name of Christ*.

snip
That's my opinion.
Cool! then it's OK for me to bomb an abortion clinic and whack an MD who performs abortions?

Excellent!
[/sarcasm]


Aliantha  Thursday Feb 2 08:29 PM

Quote:
What would they think of Dame Edna?
Would they allow Dame Edna to be in the same room with a man alone?...possums?


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