And that Jag is ultimately the point. Look at any of the groups who cry oppression or discrimination and at it's core you will find an economic disparity

But does that justify other forms of discrimination to 'balance it out'?

Only as long as a better solution can't be implemented.

So an eye for an eye HM? I thought two wrongs don't make a right, or does that only apply in the playground?

"hey you discriminated against us last recess, it's our turn to discriminate against you!!! i'm going to tell the teacher!!!"

yeah - seems reasonable enough

What's the better solution? Pretend there's no problem?

if you walked out to your back yard and saw your son beating your daughter with a baseball bat, not hard enough to cause real damage, but enough to inflict pain, what would you do?

A) would you say "son that was really wrong" then hand your daughter the bat and say "i'm sorry that this wrong behavior was directed at you. please take this bat as compensation and beat your brother until you think that the two of you have received equal beatings."?

B) would you acknowledge that it was unacceptable behavior and then try to draw the 2 siblings into a more acceptable relationship; one where they both understand that wronging the other is unacceptable, no matter who the aggressor is?

C) would you walk out and say "good swinging son, now don't drop your shoulder."

i think you would choose b. if not, what is the number to CPS in your area? wrong behavior is not an acceptable repayment for previous wrong behavior.

I tried constructing a response based on your analogy, but it just isn't relevant. It's more like the son is digging the daughter into a hole, and she's trying to dig her way out. Even if you stop the son from digging (which hasn't completely happened yet), she still has a ways to go before she gets to the surface.

Oh lordy. I read those rules (or at least part of them). *shakes head*

At any rate, so what's next? You've proudly condemned these orgs. What's the next step?

the next step is for everyone to quit looking for someone to blame for diffifulties in their lives, even when there is valid fault reason to do so, and get on with life. do the best that we can, with what we have, try to improve yourself and help the person to the right and left of you, applaud those you see helping others, ignore those who hinder, help old ladies across the street, smile and little kids(even the dirty ones), be kind to everyone (even those that make your skin crawl), love every day of life for all it is worth, hug and kiss (when appropriate) your family every chance you get, and raise your kids to understand that the ignorant people in the world cannot hold them back unless they succomb to victimhood.

lather, rinse, repeat.

no one can make me fail, except for me.
that is what we should do.

My work here is done.

-sm

And so is mine. :D

Clearly you've misread my posts. Nowhere did I say they were bad. I said they were racist. I don't have a problem with a club having valid discriminatory criteria.

What I do have a problem with is an organization using its vast resources to sell its constituency on the fact that all of their problems can be blamed on someone else instead of spending those resources to improve the clearly pointed out problems that they actually have.

Smartass...

My philosophy instructor beat you to the punch. Sorry. Yours was just a convenient link.

The only way to end racism is to engage in a process to end racism. The process to end racism cannot begin until racism is recognised and confronted. If racism exists in the present day then it must be confronted in the present and framed in contemporary terms.

If you or your community experience racism then you have two possible responses. You can either ignore it or attempt in some way to confront or deal with it. If you are a journalist that may come inthe form of a written expose .....if you are a university professor it may come in the form of your teaching style and content. If you are a stay at home mother of three it may underpin how you raise your children. If you are a young man without employment but a whole lot of testosterone to add a bitter twist to your anger it may come in the form of a violent response. If you are the kind of person who responds well to a challeneg you may make some attempt to progress despite it.....whether or not the doors slam shut in your face is not your decision to make. If you are the kind of person who is easily disenchanted or derailed you may slump into a bleak mood from which you never fully emerge. If your experience of the world is of extreme racism you may form an extreme response. If your experience of the world is of a slight residual racism you may form a sense of unfairness to be challenged but not to rail against.

Racism takes many forms and manifests in many walks of life. Some areas of the world and some areas of each country are more extreme than others. If your life experience introduces you primarily to the milder forms of racism then you may well percieve there to be less of a problem than there is....arguably then if your life experience introduces you primarily to the most damaging and base forms of racism and discrimination then perhaps you percieve more of a problem than exists in the world at large.

Just looking at the educational opportunities and employment opportunities for black and white in specific areas and looking at the wages commanded by each block overall....it seems to me ( and indeed to many) that there is inequity between the two. That is not to say if you are white you get it handed to you on a plate and if you are black you are slapped if you reach for the plate....It just seems from the evidence that if you are white you are more likely to have had better opportunities and advantages than if you are black ( or indeed darker skinned, this seems to run across many ethnicities although the black experience seems to sit at the bottom in most scales)

By extension thne if you are black you are less likely to have had the educational opportunities of your white counterpart. You are statistically more likely to have been raised below the poverty line and statistically less likely to get a job above minimum wage levels. You are also statisticaly more likely to have been arrested and more likely to serve time in prison ....seems to me that last part is fairly intrinsically linked to the rest.

If you are part of a group, even if you yourself are one of the people who responds to racism in the system as a challenge and progresses, through the hardest work and most dedicated commitment. Even if you are raised in a family that already broke through the glass ceiling and found a way into the upper echelons of society. If the group to which you belong has been systematically abused in the past and is still at many levels still facing abuse then I would imagine it could be a difficult thing to do, to disassociate from that groups' distress. For instance...I was raised in a family that held very little in the way of patriarchal sexist views or agendas. My brother and I did the same household chores ( unlike some of my friends at school, whose brothers didnt have to help with housework because it was girls work ) I played with all kinds of toys, soldiers included. I found outside a world which was a mix of old sexist institutions and attitudes and new progressive liberal attitudes and institutions. I can blame none of my failures on an unfair patriarchy, they are my own entire. I have not experienced extreme prejudice but I have experienced a low level sexism ( occassionally rising to the outrageous but theyre mainly dying off now ) just enough to keep the kettle boiling..... I am not angry, I have little reason for it and there are other fights more worth my while right now ( like the fight against fascism in britain) but .....there are still many glass ceilings in place and many of the old barriers to progression are still there. Look to where the true power and wealth reside and you'll find very very few female faces. Precious few asian or black ones also. Follow a trail down from the lines of power and as you move down you'll see more female faces. Get to the unskilled menial work and you'll find ever more. Look to the temping agencies and the part timers who work with no rights or protections and that's where you'll find many of the women.

Meantime domestic violence is at an astonishing high and recent studies show a disturbing attitude amongst school age males towards females and violence.

If I as someone who hasnt been blighted with verymuch of the downside of being female in today's britain, hear the stories of those who do suffer the worst aspects of society's sexism, I feel a sense of kinship to the woman and I feel a sense of anger at the unfairness of it. I also feel a sense of...there but for the grace of fate go I. It's natural to search for likeness in others. It's a natural human instinct to associate into those that are like.

Even if someone has had the very good fortune to be born black in a white world and still succeed, that doesnt mean they cease to feel their brother's pain and nor should they ( in my opinion) If they stop fighting the race war thne they'll lose it ...again. What they understand, and what I would tend to agree with ...is that the race war hasnt ended, it's just become more covert.....White society has very much not stopped fighting that war, even if individual white people have

Thats my tuppen'orth anyway *smiles* bit rambling but that's what happens when ya log in first thing in the morning and come round with coffee and cellar :P

Good point, well made. :)

there's nothing like perpetuating a perceived state of conflict by couching your statements in terms of violence.

dana - you sound like a wonderfully empathetic and sympathetic individual but it is clear that in situations where you can't fit yourself into the victim's role, you will look around to make sure there is someone being victimized.

it has been pointed out by smarter cellarites than myself - if you want to find cases of disparity, you will.

"dana - you sound like a wonderfully empathetic and sympathetic individual but it is clear that in situations where you can't fit yourself into the victim's role, you will look around to make sure there is someone being victimized. "

No....I just take a political analysis of a political problem. I couch it in terms of battle because there is a battle being fought. There are many battles. There is a long tradition of couching political struggles in terms appropriate to warfare. As long as the inequity still exists within the wider picture thne there is still a battle to be fought by those on the losing end of that equation. It's naturally in the interests of someone who belongs to the more powerful group to work to maintain the status quo because the status quo benefits them. Hence it is usually those belonging to the oppressing group rather thna the oppressed group who claim the oppression is part of the past . Anybody who belongs to the oppressed group knows damn well it is an iniquity of the present day.

Dana you might want to re-phrase that, you basically just accused every white person on the planet who is not aware of any current discrimination against in this case, blacks, of being part of a vast conspiricy to maintiain their 'superiority' or somesuch rubbish.

Inequality will always exist and as bruce so finely put it, we all cop it one way or another, people give favours to people they know, people they go golfing with, brother's friends not to mention old school tie stuff. There are entire management structures in some companies that you'll be unable to break in to unless you went to a certain school. Suck? Hell yes? Part of life? Certainly. Justify a culture of victimhood? no.

ok dana -

name 1 thing that a white individual has the right or ability to do that a member of any minority, in america, does not have the right to do. just 1, that is all i'm asking. we have equal access to schools, we have equal access to jobs, we have equal access to housing, etc...

in fact there are pending lawsuits in america because of schools like Univ of Michigan that work on a point system for acceptance. most of the points are for academics, etc. but there is a scale of "extra credit"points you get if you are a member of different minority groups. care to venture a guess as to how many points a white person gets?

jag is right, to a large degree business is about who you know. successful business people surround themselves with people that they know they can count on. this generally means someone they have worked with before, or a direct referral. it's called the good old boy network. it is not racist at all, there are also many qualified white people that miss out on jobs, because of the "who you know" network.
just because a qualified black individual didn't get the job, doesn't mean they were not hired because of skin color.

My point is that one can either tackle racism as a problem or ignore it. To ignore it is to accept it as an inevitable part of life rather than a problem which can be solved. To ignore it is to maintain the status quo. It is in the interests of those in power to maintain the status quo as it benefits their demographic.

Do I believe that all white people are conspiring to keep the black man down? of course not, but it is clearly a reality of life which makes itself felt in the black experience in a way it does not make itself felt in the white. Is life fair for white people? No it's fair for nobody, some people get many opportunities some get few and that cuts across the boards....However the earnings disparity between the majority of black people in America and the majority of white people in America is extreme and in fact has not shifted terribly much since the days of slavery. Black people are free and they have more rights and opportunities thna they once had in America but the distance between their earnings and the majority of whites has not shrunk particularly in the past 2oo years. In order to redress the balance affirmative action has in some cases been used, but since affirmative action does it's job by making things unfair for some white people it has recieved an awful lot of bad press......to shift the balance so that is less in favour of whites means acting unfairly towards whites by placing artificial barriers in their way. This is not considered acceptable by most despite the fact it would make things more fair whne viewed as a whole. Most people who are not part of the groups most likely to face discrimination dont want the world made any more unfair towards themselves regardless of how much more fair that would be for those who are currently discriminated against.


Lookout it isnt a case of rights. In law black and white are equal.....but in reality the opportunities are fewerr for black than white and the wages are lower. Unless you are suggesting that the reason black people are so disproportionately living bneath the poverty line and that whites are disproportionately likely to succeed in business and academia is due to black people just being less capable or ambitious.

How so?

Why is it fair to make it easier for for a group, when taken as a whole, that is less qualified, when taken as a whole, for for most forms of skilled positions, when taken as a whole?

numbers? show me proof that blacks make, in relation to whites, earn no more now than they did 200 years ago.

and drop this "they have more rights and opportunities thna they one had..." BS. they have EVERY right and opportunity that i have.

handicaps are for golf not life. it is inexcuseable in modern life to skew the starting point of anything in the favor of any particular group, no matter what happened in the past. affirmative action while a good idea on paper, cannot be put into action in a proper manner - because it does not treat people as equal. it says to the minority "you couldn't do this on your own so we'll give you a little shove" if that isn't inherently racist, i don't know what is.

Bias is part of humanity, you're never going to eliminate it. If the majority of executives were black women I'll put $50 that says they would elect a disproportionate number of blacks and women to similar posts, why? Not because they are racism or sexist but becuase they are more likely to be close friends and associates of blacks and women. Bruce's westinghouse example goes in this direction, but that does sound like straight out racism that jobs for the boys.

How about we look at the socioeconomics of that a little further. Poverty breeds poverty, outside the more racist areas of the US I'm willing to be a white guy from an impoverished background who goes though a shitty school system in an inner city slum is just as likely to be a failure as a black guy who does the same. Visa versa for middle class. The fact that more blacks are below the poverty is a social artifact of another era, there isn't too much you can do about it that doesn't apply to all races.

Dana 200 years ago blacks were slaves, I don't think they are today, wage equality isn't there yet but it isn't quite that bad.

actually i don't feel they are less capable or ambitious, but those who support affirmative action obviously do.

again - what opportunities do blacks not have access to?

the difference in thought here is pretty obvious - you think that equality means we all have similar job success, income, educational achievements, etc. i say that those are results dependent on the individuals level of dedication - something that cannot be quantitatively measured. in my view equality means having the same ACCESS to opportunities schools, jobs, etc... what you do with it and how you perform and the decisions you make in regards to these opportunities all fall on the individual, not society.

Or to word it slightly differently, what do blacks not have access to that all whites have access to. If my parents were alumini of an Ivy League uni I'd have an easier path in.

you know that is a good point. i just assumed we were all working from the same basis, but we obviously aren't.

dana and many like here don't see that even though i (and many others) scored high enough to meet their standards it would be a cold day in hell before i ever got into an ivy league school. that isn't racist, classist, or any other ist. life is about meeting people and networking. my dad got his job in the factory 30-odd years ago when they weren't hiring because he played poker with one of the HR guys. each of my successive jobs i have worked with or for someone that i sold something to in my last career. people remember those that they have had a positive experience with and move them to the top of the list. as long as the person hired is qualified, there is nothing wrong with that.

No, those who support affirmative action feel that there are still many people in positions of power who feel that way, who have to be given a nudge to overcome their prejudices.

For the record I'll add my own examples - though family name and resulting contacts I've had access to information that has made me a lot of money and opened many doors though no action or inaction of my own. I understand this and do my best to help out others who may not have the same luck (it is luck) but I certainly don't apologise for it.

[double]Jag ... for the purpose of any discussion of race or racism, as a white male you start with a lack of credibility from the standpoint of those whose job/avocation/life mission it is to find, point out, and punish racism.[/standard]

See, that's what I have a problem with. And no amount of arguing is going to change the viewpoint of those whose firm belief (despite evidence pro or con) it is that thus and such does or does not exist. It's pretty much the same stalement you come to in existence of god(s) discussions.

Racism is the evangelism of color.

I thought this was important so I went to the US Census Bureau table on mean income over time against race to get mean incomes for whites and blacks from 1948-2001 (in fixed 2001 dollars). Then I created a graph of it.

http://cellar.org/2004/raceincome.gif

Conclusion: there is still a very large gap in income. However, percentage-wise, blacks ARE catching up. White income was about 100% higher than black income in 1948 and now is about 30% higher.

I also learned, in browsing around the tables at the census bureau, that in 2001 white women and black women's mean income was about the SAME. !!!

Rather illuminating.

Thanks for the extra effort. Graphs can be a bitch.

(Fixed 2001 dollars means adjusted for inflation, right?)

Wierd. An almost fixed difference of $7500 the whole way down. I wonder what accounts for something that constant.

Correlation can be hard to find sometimes. The trick is to avoid attribution, or spurious correlation, under those conditions.

And I agree, weird.

Those lines just seem too similar to me. Every wave and crest. I can't bring myselft to believe that blacks were doing that well relative to whites pre 1950. The $7,500 gap today seems believable but in 1950? That's almost laughable. Not questioning UT's work but the data itself.

You don't think they were making half salary on average, pre 1950? There were (and still are) a lot of poor whites to balance out the rich elites, and the number is mean salary, not average, so the robber barrons don't throw the number off too much.

thanks for that effort UT. good job.

It is adjusted for inflation, so the real numbers in 1950 were more like $2000 vs $1000.

Yeah, thanks for that UT that's very interesting