WWJK: Who would Jesus Kill - Military supplier adds bible references to rifle sights
 

From here

Ok, we already paid a Christian conservative billions of dollars to field the largest mercenary army in recent history. We already had a U.S. president declare a 'crusade' in the middle east. If Muslim extremists are supposed to be the trigger happy religious nutjobs, why are we referencing New Testament bible passages on rifle scopes? A blanket, first aid kit, or a meal ration is something to give comfort. It would be annoying but understandable if someone were slipping in bible tracts there. A rifle scope pretty much serves a single purpose, to target and kill an enemy. Since 2001 this enemy is predominantly Muslim.

So if we're trying to convince the world that this is not a Christian war or crusade on Islam, I think this might be sending the wrong message.

BTW, as of 2001 (see here), 32% of the military were atheist or non-Christian. Add to that the fact that some devout Christians also might have a problem mixing religion and killing and I think this was in poor taste. If a soldier really wants a Bible reference on his or her gun sight, they can scratch it there themselves.

I don't think that Trijicon is "trying to convince the world that this is not a Christian war or crusade on Islam". Just the opposite, I suspect.

What are the bible passages referenced? Despite the fact that it is a Christian book, not all passages in the bible are meaningful solely to Christians. Don't Jews pretty much go with the "old testment"? And the Song of Solomon is almost porn. Even atheists can appreciate that. Seriously, it would never had occured to me that it was a bible reference if you hadn't told me. Yup I guess it shouldn't happen but I just don't care enough. There are plenty other places where Christianity is way too invasive. But my ambivalence does depend on which passages are referenced.

As a company they are allowed to print that on their product if they so choose, nothing wrong that at all. If the military is concerned about their image in this regard, then they should have weighed the potential negatives of buying this product against the benefits of it being world class quality, and the preferred choice of many soldiers before signing any contract with Trijicon to begin with.

This is a big hoopla over nothing. The print is very small so please tell me how many "hearts and minds" this has lost over the years, and the verses referenced aren't even violent in nature to begin with. From a USA Today article: "This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."


[edit] from a quick search, here are the passages:
John:8:12 “When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’”

2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,"

MT5:16
"In the same way, let your light so shine before other, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father in heaven."

I think the point is informed consent. Did the military know about the policy?

From the press covering this story I've read, the company does not make any attempt to hide the markings and openly acknowledges their existence/meaning when asked. Whether the verses were actually known about when whoever made the decision to go with those sights is unknown, right now it seems like typical ass-covering by the military saying they knew nothing. Or they really could not have known, but that is hard to believe given how long this company's products have been used by the military. Then again it could be a case of "well the guys really like these sights, that's an odd looking serial number on the side there.. whatever, they like it so we'll buy it."

The company is overtly Christian. From their website page About Us: "• Morality
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals." So whoever made the decision to contract with Trijicon knew at least that much for starters.

Hm so it's passages about light. On an instrument designed to help paople see more clearly.... Seems like your regular hypocritical sales spiel to me....

Trijicon's night sights are awesome.

They aren't printing out the full verse ... just the reference, which frankly looks like a product ID code more than anything.

I was amused by the poll the NY Daily News was pretty clearly trying to skew by wording, but it seems to have backfired.

God's winning, 59 to 38, with only 3% undecided.

Go ahead and freak out if you want. Or you can look at the fact that Trijicon is absolutely top drawer shit. They're a private company who was contracted to produce specific items for the government. They did so. Who cares if there is a series of letters and numbers etched into the metal? Does it have a negative effect on the performance of the equipment? Do you really not have anything better to trip out about?

Matthew 5:16 is, I believe, on a battery-powered illuminated-red-dot sight. No weirder, really, than quoting Luke 4:30 on a fourteenth century bascinet -- a fine piece of martial sassiness!

But heaven forbid we should offend the fuckers they're being pointed at. :rolleyes:
Just issue them to US troops, no problem.

If Trijicon really wants to take over the Wahhabi market, there are always cites of particularly martial Surahs, no?

It's also possible they could offend moslem troops in the US army.

Are there any agnostic, atheist, Jewish, Moslem, or Buddhist fuckers in the US Army? Mil spec used to be pretty rigid. As to 14th century head gear, it was appropriate if worn by Christian soldiers in a Christian army on crusade, which apparently you guys believe the US Army is.

It just sounds so wrong to put a bible verse on a killing machine. This is what really pisses me off about some Christians....everything is justified conveniently away.

Isn't the soldier the killing machine? The gun is just a making holes in things machine... ;)

No. Remember? "Guns don't kill people, texting while driving kills people".*



* Property of Zengum, used without permission.

Pico - Seriously? You think there is a disconnect between the Bible and killing? Might want to flip through a couple pages of that book again.

The US military is not a christian or crusader's army, it is an army put forth by the US. They need tools like scopes and night sights. Those tools are made by a company that happens to put a series of letters and numbers on the equipment. If an atheist, jew, or muslim feels compelled to read those letters, grab a Bible, read the verse and be offended... fuck 'em.

Of course, you can sit and home and be offended if you want but I don't really give a shit. How many of you were offended to find out that the report on the Ft Hood shootings makes no mention of the shooter's motivation and faith? None that I can see. Read a report that there are references to Bible verses (all havign to do with light) on scopes and night vision gear and Lookout! Here comes the handwringing and tears.

'all having to do with light'. The implication clearly beng that the Christian God brings the light and that non-Christians are in darkness. So the army of an ostensibly Christian nation is using guns marked with quotations referring to the Christian God's bringing of the light, against non-Christians: thereby bringing the light to them?


Onward Christian soldiers.

:biggrin:
Link please?:blush:

Settle down, there aren't any pictures. :sniff:

Defense contractors should not be inscribing religious messages on anything sold to the government.

Is it s a contracting violation? IDK. Should it be our greatest concern with DoD contracting irregularities? Nope.

What those companies do with regard to private sales is their own business.

No, just between what people who profess to be christian say and what they do.

I'm still looking for your disconnect Pico.

Dana - the verses are about light. The equipment they are etched into draw light into them to give the ability to see at night. or we can just as easily assume it is a big slap in the face to those dirty muslims.

The verses were there before the government gave the contract. Don't like it? don't give the contract to that company. Of course, I'm willing to bet that even a muslim soldier given the choice between having and not having this "offensive" equipment would choose to have it.

In the end I'm sure Trijicon will want to keep the contract and will agree to stop etching the sights. I truly don't care. Admittedly I find it pretty funny. The only part that gets under my skin is all the people pissing and moaning about this trivial issue rather than focusing on bigger problems.

I wasn't suggesting the contract be cancelled. Just pointing out that 'it's about light' isn't necessarily an innocuous thing in the context of a Christian nation at war with a moslem army.

Fair enough. It may not be as innocent as I've put it, but in the end it is still who cares item for me. Sure, there are plenty of people ready to get their panties in a twist but let's face it, most of them are just looking for something to be pissed at anyway.

It doesn't matter, if they are in the US Army they do what they are ordered to do, with the equipment they are issued.
[T Hanks]There is no offended in the Army.[/T Hanks]

You're really reaching, don't fall over.

You can't say panties, that's sexist and condescending. :eyebrow:

I'm sure that not every single person who is upset by this issue wears panties. But they should.

Hardly reaching. It seems fucking obvious to me.

...being upset and getting involved in a discussion aren't necessarily the same thing, Some of us just like to argue/discuss shit.

fucking manc tart. better untwist your panties. ;)You're probably just upset cuz Arsenal kicked the piss out of Bolton twice in four days.

How d'ye know I'm wearing any to twist?

You had them on in your picture... but I like the way you think.

But the company has been doing this forever, they couldn't/can't predict who the sights would be used against.

I wasn't saying that's why the company put them on. Just that it is obvious why it might be seen as offensive/dodgy.

But unless it's intentional, then making any offensive connection is tenuous, ie reaching.

He wore new suit, and immediately got run over by a bus carrying an ad for a rival suitmaker. Should the widow be offended by the rival suitmaker?

:redcard: Bullshit - simple assumption.:bs:


Oh and . . . . :sniper:

John:8:12 “When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, ‘I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.’”

2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ,"


Of course it is referring to the Christian God bringing light. Whoever follows Jesus will never walk in darkness: the flipside to that is that those who don't follow him, may well walk in darkness.

People who have a flashlight will never walk in darkness does not mean, people without a flashlight will walk in darkness.

Now I think you're reaching :P

au contraire, I'm the one not reaching. I accept 2 + 2, without trying to make 4.

Bruce gets it.

Because "A" is true, doesn't necessarily mean that the inverse of "A" is false.

Damn...how are specific references to New Testament passages - Second Corinthians 4:6 and John 8:12 - not references to Christianity?


I dont think it is all that big of deal...but WTF? Assumption?

It's not a question of where they come from, but what the passages say, and more importantly to Dana, what they imply.

They imply light is provided through Jesus Christ.

But we've reached that point of agreeing to disagree.

And to Dana:

http://cellar.org/showpost.php?p=628830&postcount=55

Not true. They say Christians will be provided light through Jesus Christ, straight out, no implication at all.

They do not imply others will be in the dark, nor others won't get their light from a different source.

Wasn't talking to you & didn't say they weren't. You are again incorrectly assuming what I was referring to. . .

*ahem* reread what i said: may well walk in darkness; not will walk in darkness.

I did read it Dana. I even quoted it. No harm, no foul.

You wrote "may well", but you implied "will". :lol2:

"Problem" solved: Trijicon willing to stop adding references to products used by the military, and offering removal kits.

Now ^^^^ that's ^^^^ how you kill a thread ;)

Nope that's how you keep a giant ass contract while getting a chuckle at all the crybabies.

Damn, I better buy a couple before I can only get the godless heathen kind that will leave me stumbling in the dark.

hang on a little while. The market will soon be flooded with items that were "lost" when they were modified with the new equipment.

Cool, praise Jesus.

You know I will if I can get a great deal on a nice scope with or without a verse.

What, like, they'll send you a Dremel?

Probably Scotch-Brite discs or something of that ilk.

Screw you Lookout, According to this...

Quote:

...Of course, you can sit and home and be offended if you want but I don't really give a shit...

...you dont really want to know. If you dont see my point, why should I care to explain it to you after that?