Bali baddie talks
 

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/23709.htm

The guy who probably ordered the Bali bombing is in custody, and here's what he had to say:

Asked if he had anything to say to the families who lost relatives in the blast, the 64-year-old Bashir said: "My message to the families is please convert to Islam as soon as possible."

"The second message is for Australia because you suffered the most: Please advise your government not to follow the U.S. policy because it will bring tragedy for your country," he said.

Two separate paragraphs, two motives. One, all infidels are possible targets until there are no remaining infidels. Two, every nation in the anti-terror coalition is a target, and there's the promise of more to come.

But even though the religious and political motives are clear, the infidels did it:

"The indications are Americans and Jews did it to justify the claims that Indonesia is a terrorist haven. What they mean by terrorists is Muslims. So to prove their theory they created the incident in Bali."

There's that weird honor-shame culture in effect again. "We did it because we hate the infidels and the infidels hate us. But... we didn't do it. THEY did it."

It's a strange situation: when hearing these cultures say "we didn't do it", our instinct is to take them at their word, because our own cultures respect individual responsibility and expect admission of guilt. But "we didn't do it" is an instinctive reaction to ANY charge in these cultures. We see this again and again: in the EgyptAir pilot suicide, in the Yemeni demand that the French tanker was NOT hit by terrorists, in the entire mideast's heartfelt belief that bin Laden simply could not have done it and that bin Laden's own tape was an enormous ruse.

And it reminds me of racism in my own culture: the repeated blaming of the "other" that comes from hate groups. "The blacks moved in and ruined things." "The Jewish-run media controls what gets out." "The dirty immigrants stole all our jobs."

Radical Islam, various "National Front" movements, and the KKK: alike in so many ways.

and that reminds me of racism in my own culture ...

I will say this: without a speck of doubt in my mind, I believe that my culture is more advanced than the honor-shame culture.

If that makes me racist, then I'm a fucking racist.

"Infidels: your respect for freedom of religion requires you to respect our belief that you should be forced to conform to our religion or die."

Condensed version: "Mr. Policeman: I am God."

What indicates racism is viewing everyone of "them" (whatever group that may be) as a collective.

When you say, "hearing these cultures say, 'we didn't do it'" is like saying things like "blacks say this" or "jews say that" or "muslims say this or that" which are things that many racists say.

Cultures don't say anything. Individuals do. Ours is a culture of individual responsibility. Thinking otherwise, and holding another group responsible for the sayings of any individuals may be racism or bigotry, depending on the type of group.

You know, that's simply wrong. Racism, with the word "race" as a base word, is believing that certain races are superior or inferior simply as a matter of race.

(And I do believe that; for instance, I believe that African people make for a far superior selection of cornerbacks, due to a long history of having developed the type of musculature needed for sprinting... for whatever reason. And I believe the predominance of African-Americans as NFL cornerbacks is not racism, but a very strong nationwide process of selecting top-quality cornerbacks.)

But cultures are dramatically different. Human nature and personality may be similar, but the schools of thought that have developed through the interaction of individuals are much, much different.

We don't understand that in our society because we are taught that cultural differences are simply speaking different languages and eating different food. We assume that everyone uses the same moral codes, perspective, etc. But they don't.

Nic, I'm sorry, but this gets deeper the more I think about it. In honor-shame culture, collective thought is kinda welcomed!

And we can't see the products of our collective thinking because they are so deeply ingrained in us.

It would be racism if I were to say that if you took a one-year-old Arab and placed him in a guilt-culture western family, he would eventually fall into the same patterns as most fellow Arabs. I don't believe that (and the honor-shame culture isn't found solely in the Arab world anyway).

Culture is always changing, but does it really advance? What is a more advanced culture? Seems to me the criteria is more a matter of opinion than anything else.

I dunno...this is starting to sound like a modern-day version of the Crusades.

I had an employee at Signal...his stepdad was one of the people in charge of Asian operations for Wyeth-Ayerst (a large pharmaceutical company). For whatever reason, he was based in Jakarta. The employee told me that his mom and stepdad had a suitcase packed and a one-way ticket to Singapore, in case they had to leave on a moment's notice. I wonder if they did so last week.

I think the word you're looking for is 'generalizing'. Its use is more a matter of verbal convenience than anything else.

I don't believe that there's any scientific evidence to support this claim.

I dare you to prove it.

I personally haven't looked at any detailed research involving this sorta thing; however, I do suspect that there is an evolutionary factor at work when it comes to African-Americans. So, without further ado...

Sycamore's Theory of African-American Evolution

For hundreds of years, Africans were brought to the Americas to do back-breaking work as slaves. The strongest and smartest ones lived; the weaker and less intelligent ones did not. Those smart genes were passed on to offspring. Due to the short lives that people lived in those times, the evolutionary cycle may have been accelerated (resulting in changes over a few hundred years, as opposed to thousands). Furthermore, with interbreeding between races, African-Americans were exposed to both African and European genes. This could have had both positive and negative consequences. Lastly, better nutrition and living conditions have benefitted people of all races. Though conditions may have improved only slightly after the abolishment of slavery, I personally suspect that any improvement over the general conditions of slavery would be of incredible benefit to at least some of the freed Africans and African-Americans. However, it is quite possible that many slaves were well cared for by their owners, and hence an end to slavery may have worsened the conditions of some.

It's a work in progress. :)

Warrens new name will be Jimmy (as in the Greek) ;)

I doubt there would ever be studies that test for different muscle types in different races. There's no real reason to have such a study, and racial studies are not going to make the top of the list for finding by anyone, public or private.

But there *are* different types of muscle fibre that optimize one for sprinting (as opposed to having endurance), and obviously that's the sort of thing that's likely to have a genetic connection.

It's not a good or bad thing, either, until people start putting prejudice into the mix. A greater number of African-Americans are great cornerbacks, but that has no bearing on whether any one individual is a great cornerback, no matter what their race is.

I think the main bone of contention in the difference between races involves intelligence. Now, I don't think African-Americans are less intelligent than Caucasians, nor do I think Asians are better at math or Indians/Pakistanis are better doctors. I see obvious physical differences between the three primary races, but intelligence...nah, I'm not buying that. There have been so many intelligent people of color in the course of human history.

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Description of different muscle fiber types:

http://www.coachr.org/fiber.htm

The key paragraph:

There is great variability in the percentage of fiber types among athletes. For example, it is well known that endurance athletes have a greater proportion of slow-twitch fibers, while sprinters and jumpers have more fast-twitch fibers (Costill, et al., 1976; Ricoy, et al., 1998). The greater percentage of FT fibers in sprinters enables them to produce greater muscle force and power than their ST-fibered counterparts (Fitts & Widrick, 1996). Differences in muscle fiber composition among athletes have raised the question of whether muscle structure is an acquired trait or is genetically determined. Studies performed on identical twins have shown that muscle fiber composition is very much genetically determined (Komi & Karlsson, 1979), however there is evidence that both the structure and metabolic capacity of individual muscle fibers can adapt specifically to different types of training.

In what regard is this culture better than theirs? Is perhaps that we use one semi-elected wacko with military high tech bombs to kill the civilians of cultures that we dissagree with and they have random self apointed wackos to kill our's with low tech bombs?

"my culture" doesn't refer to any culture other than the one the pundit is born into and raised in.

he'd think the same way about his culture if he were muslim or asian.

Ah stuffit, gotta comment on this. There is so far no proof that JI were linked to this, furthermore it does not fit the assessment profile of JI whatsoever. The attack was well planned and executed and used a classic formula of one to get people into a street before a second major one. Secondly the explosive used was C4, which is mostly only accessible to the military, which it is worth noting have links to Islamic extremists in Indonesia dating back to the 70s. This may have been JI backed, but i doubt it was executed by JI, and most likely involved authorized or not, elements of the military in Indonesia and most likely overseas Islamic extremists. It is unlikely mainstream military elements planned this either as they have a strong financial interest in Bali, owning many of the major Hotels etc, which are of course ruined economically for a good 6 or so years because of this.

<i>he'd think the same way about his culture if he were muslim or asian.</i>

Uh, maybe. But let's put it this way so as to fully understand what's being said.

If Nic and I were in Tiennanmen Square, Nic would be in the tank defending his way of life... and I would be in front of it trying to change it.

And if we were in Israel you'd be in the IDF, hauling my sorry ass off my land. ;) ... or vice versa.

The point being, everyone seems to have a strong predilection for the culture into which they are born and raised. UT, you're not the exception in your views ... you're the norm.

<i>In what regard is this culture better than theirs?</i>

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_guilt.htm

This link is the backgrounder on shame culture vs guilt culture. If you're lazy like me and don't want to read the whole thing, at least scroll down to the colored tables that summarize the differences.

"Advanced" meaning the protection of individual human rights and dignity and emphasizing individual responsibility? Females seem to come up with the short end in shame cultures, so I'm ok with the idea of advancement.

Yeah, that's basically it. Respect for civil rights, individual rights, etc.

Somewhere there's a list of the seven highly effective habits of modern nations, or something like that, which tries to develop subjective criteria for what culture oughta try to be like. Is the culture productive? Do the rulers have the consent of the governed? Women's rights is one of the seven items if I recall. But no amount of googling could find the list...

Indeed, no proof at this stage. But what I have read is that the big boom was 100-150 kg of ammonium nitrate with a C4 initiator, and that JI bought it from illicit sources in the Indonisian military with funds provided by Al-Queda. http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/top...150180,00.html

Apparently they still have quite a bit of it left.

Isn't the shame culture alive and well in the US? Isn't that why CEOs can steal from thier companies and share holders just so long as they have plausible deniability or don't get caught?

In many instances of business culture, reputation is all that matters, not whether you did it or not.

No, that's not shame culture. The crooked CEOs don't mind that everyone THINKS they are crooks (as in the Rigas family), they get bothered only if you can prove it.

Maggie i'm guessing Al Queda is involved but i doubt it Al Queda on thier own and i doubt JI had a major role. I hard the nitrate thing about half an hour ago, which is a signiture of Al Queda too.

Aw, dammit. I'm wrong again!!

Still, that's very interesting reading. Thanks. :)

ANFO is an Al Queda signature the way an "X" is a signature of the illiterate.

Hint, possible sign etc. The whole thing has been extremely tight lipped since ASIS/ASIO moved in so getting any infomation has been fun, which is annoying the shit out of me becase i've got an exam i'm sure is going to invole this stuff one way or another.

Long ago (therefore I have no citation and do this from long term memory) was a study that noted how muscle fiber varied depending upon the Africa that a person came from. (BTW when I explained this to some people, they though I was being racist.) Some regions had diets and environments that encouraged strong muscle structure (west Africa?) - American football linemen. Others regions encourage muscle development that was lighter and could create a more sudden burst of energy (east Africa?) - running and defensive backs. Then you have the unique characteristic of those from Ethiopia where great endurance was necessary to survive - distance runners.

The point was that muscle development varied in different parts of Africa because of regional diet and what the environment demanded of its residents. Nothing racist about this. Classic study of genetics.

In that same line of research - many Caucasians are closer, genetically, to Africans than to other Caucasians. We tend to associate race with features such a skin color. Actually skin color has very little relationship to one's race - genetically speaking.

If skin color determines a person's race, then so does height - another feature based upon genetics.

Was it Al Qaeda in Bali? Get out of the US and other potential bombers emerge. Megawati Sukarnoputri is a women. A women in a leadership role in an Islamic country is, by itself, enough to terrorize the public. Some news reports say the bomb contained C4 meaning a military connection. A retired Air Force officer was cited by some reports as confessing to making a bomb. Megawati is not popular with the military. Already there have been multiple assassination plots executed against Megawati. Anything to make the nation unstable would mean Megawati would be removed as, for example, being a weak woman. There are plenty of reasons for Indonesian political terrorists to have set multiple, simultaneous bombs including the one in Bali.

Long before 11 Sept, major oil companies had already shut down operations in Aesch because of Islamic terrorism - nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. Local terrorists had even bombed the Jakarta stock exchange. However, in the US where international news is rarely reported, it is now easy to blame problems on Al Qaeda. It is the mindset of this American government that will next attempt to connect it all to Iraq. There is no reason at this point, other than speculation, to associate bombings in the Sari Club with Al Qaeda. In America, take such claims with extreme suspicion because of this current administration's needs to blame everything on Al Qaeda and Iraq.

Simultaneously with the Bali bomb was another bomb on the island of Sulawesi against the Phillippine consulate. Was Al Qaeda also attacking the Fillipinos - or are these bombs really a local militant operations as has been ongoing throughout SE Asia - such as by Jemaah Islamiah and its rumored leader - Abu Bakar?

Indonesia has openly ignored Islamic extremism in the belief that if not attacked, then religious terrorists would go elsewhere to attack. For example Islam Defenders Front had been attacking and ransacking bars and nightclubs without any police response. People sometimes have to die before a government is provided public support to respond. Previously Indonesians had publically supported those who oppose any crackdown on religious terrorists. Indonesia secretly handed two foreign terrorists to America without further investigation because of public opinion. Reportedly, Indonesia finally wants to talk to these people since all they currently have only what America reports.

It is now politically acceptable to investigate and arrest terrorist organizations. Previously, Indonesia had angered even its neighbors for inaction. Another Islamic group accused of attacking a Christian church, Lakar Jihad, is now reported to be disbanding - due to new Indonesian political atmosphere.

The Bali bombing was particularly destructive. Virtually every hotel in Kuta had guests who were killed or missing. Football teams from Perth, Syndney, Adelaide, the Gold Coast (Queensland), and Forbes (New South Wales) all celebrating the end of a season instead lost friends. But there is no reason to believe this is Al Qaeda.

After 11 September, noted here was that Aesch would be a fine place for Osama bin Laden to move. Even the strait between Indonesia's westernmost island and Malaysia is home to most of the world's pirates - who are quite active in highjacking or raiding this, one of the world's busiest sealanes. If neither Indonesia nor Malaysia can stop simple pirates, then imagine how ideal Aesch - the western most edge of the island - would be to Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. However, Al Qaeda appears not to be there. Even the Phillippines appears to be a more preferred base for Al Qaeda terrorists.

Feeling vindicated: The currant suspects are not JI linked.

Wow. Is that MPD?
Maybe not, but they're still raisin hell.

So? Even bloody ASIO (admitidly a bunch of incompatent hacks) have been blaming JI yet this was so not JI style. Talk about scapegoat.

It's a joke. Currant....raisin...

Never mind.

Never mind.

What's that? Sour grapes?

Why always go against the currant?

:) I thought it was funny :)

:eek3: I'm not sure what's worse, the fact i didn't pick it up, the fact i spelt it that badly or the lameness of the joke.

Raising Hell?

... or the fact that you spelled it incorrectly in the Current Events topic.

:p

I'd go for "not picking it up"; since this required you to overlook the spelling of both "currant" and "raisin".

It's weird...long about 1997 my ordinary dropped letter, transposed letter and mis-timed space bar errors (the ones thet glue letters on to the wrong word, like "Th equick brownf ox" for "The quick brown fox") were joined by a new failure mode: spellings that phonetically made sense but were utterly wrong. Occasionally there were inappropriate homophones (to/too/two right/write/wright/rite and so forth) but more often phonetically plausible but novel spellings of less ordinary words.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't mention it. Butt Maggie, you dropped a couple of letters. ;)

It was my pre-coffee webcheck, thats my excuse and i'm sticking to it. (roll over a couple of times, hit power button, put in contacts, read, get coffee, shower). I make far more mistakes, mix of typos and spelling errors when i'm typing rather than writing, i think its a mix of subconscious lazyness knowing there is a spell checker normally and net english mental invasion (r u rdy 2 go 2nite?). Whereas on paper i usually spell correctly but drop letters from teh front of words or even entire words becase my brain goes faster than my hand. Thus, i'm screwed either way. Never actually learning to type probably doesn't help either.

Actually, it's a result of your hands going faster than your brain.

If my hand was going faster than my brain wouldn't i run of things to write rather than not being able to write them fast enough?

Don't you have a psych exam?

Thursday ;p
gotta take a day off sooner or later.