Bush and Religion

[lookout123]

Over the last four years we have heard a lot of discussion about GWB's faith. We have even debated in the cellar about how he professes his faith and many of his faith based views.

The Economist has a nicely balanced article on the issue that points out that most of what Bush says is highly ordinary when taken in context. Often he is saddled with criticism that is more rightly directed at many of his followers than at the president himself. His statements are, in general, highly ordinary in the political world. Whether you agree or disagree, it is an interesting read. I'll end this with one quick snippet and the link.

Mr Bush is in fact in the mainstream of recent presidents. As Michael Cromartie of the Ethics and Public Policy Centre points out, Jimmy Carter taught Sunday school while president. Bill Clinton talked about Jesus more often than Mr Bush and has spoken in more churches than Mr Bush has had rubber-chicken dinners.

The Economist

[Troubleshooter]

I don't have a problem with Jimmy teaching sunday school, that's not setting policy, and I don't have a problem with Clinton mentioning Jesus because we all know he was being disingenuous.

Bush on the other hand is the one who used the word crusade and who thinks he got elected to handle the 9/11 situation.

It's not about the word count, but the intent behind the words.

[cowhead]

yeah.. there's the whole issue of bush's wording of things.. I mean the man did graduate from an Ivy league school... (if you recall some of the debates he let his facade slip a little...I'll dig up the text if you like.. I just recall the moment of me going 'hey! I use that word!' (and no.. it's not fella ) and wether or not he actually earned his degree is moot.. and I don't care about that.. heh that's a rant for another thread)

he is a scary man.. I will now be going to the 'bush lockbox thread'

[tw]

$35 million for a massive disaster upon millions of people around the Indian Ocean. And it took him five days to make a decision. You tell me where the morality is in that MBA - President Scrooge sound more appropriate. Then when the world criticism is loud and so accurate, he says America will send more later. Wow. So moral that he cannot respond until embarrassed by the world? Lookout123 is so proud of this mental midget president.

[wolf]

I'm sure he's praying for them.

You too, tw.

[lookout123]

wow, tw is so flustered by the measly $35million that he had to post the same thing in, what 4 threads?

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

wow, tw is so flustered by the measly $35million that he had to post the same thing in, what 4 threads?

Reality must be posted multiple times so that religious extremist might notice something that was not decreed from the Aposotle George Jr. You do worship god's chosen apostle George Jr - right? We must remind Lookout123 that earthquakes do hurt people. My mistake. George Jr finally decreed that today. Now Lookout123 understands a disaster happened about the Bay of Bengal.

Lookout123, when are you going to post something that is not an insult. Oh. I forgot. You are a religious extremist. Everyone else is only a heathen. The bible told you to insult heathens.

[lookout123]

[quote=tw]We must remind Lookout123 that earthquakes do hurt people. My mistake. QUOTE]

i'm well aware of that. my sister was in phuket, remember?

Lookout123, when are you going to post something that is not an insult

what exactly insulted you so much?

You are a religious extremist.

this looks more like an insult than what i wrote, but that is ok when considering the source. (yes, my last statement may be classified as a mild insult.)

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

what exactly insulted you so much?

Lookout123 - every post from you has been no information with plenty of insults. I could care about your sister except that you now post only like an anti-Ameican religious extremist. IOW you insult and demean anyone who is not a member of your righteous club.

In no way did I post anything political. I posted straight facts. Facts like we can give Israel $billions. That is more aid that we provide to all Africa. And now we offer a paltry $35 million dollars in emergeny aid? Numeric facts about our government that should embarrass every American.

This in a region where almost as many Americans may have died as in the WTC. That is staight fact. Provided are pictures that an "I want to know" George Jr would have seen on Sunday. These are straight facts.

The mental midget president again failed to make a decision for days. Again it took him five days and public conmendation before he would even acknowledge the scope of what had happened. The press understood the seriousness long before the president would finally concede to reality. Those are facts.

A responsible George Jr would have the USS Kitty Hawk already on station to provide immediately assistance to - at minimum Americans and other NATO allies. Instead he just sat on his righteous ass and made no decisions. That is fact.

You don't like it. Then put up facts to the contrary and stop your silly insults. Insults that I would expect only from the righteous. Grow up. Be a man rather than a religious extremist. If you like George Jr's response, then provide facts why we don't have fleets of planes and ships to, at minumum, extract thousands of Americans immediately - while delivering Red Cross, Unicef, et al supplies.

What are they desperate for in that region? Armies of humans to distribut the aid. Who has the biggest armies? The nation that cannot find any more than $35 million, 6 C-130s, and some survelliance planes.

We are talking about a George Jr who even denied looting in Iraq. Is that a political statment. Only to the righteous or emotional. The fact is George Jr is slow to acknowledge anything he is not ready to understand. This president waited to have America embarrassed before he would even acknowledge the scope of this disaster. That is a fact. Leaders would never do that. Where is there anything moral about this president?

[lookout123]

ok tw, don't get your panties in a bunch. i've asked it and you still haven't answered, really. What would you have done? when would you have done it? where would you have sent it? who would have done it? how much money should have been in the US gov'ts initial pledge? and also why would we do what you would suggest?

give me something to sway me to your viewpoint. something substantial that doesn't consist of "george, jr bad, mental midget dumb" don't you get it? i don't care who the devil the president is, if you are going to rip him up for his mistakes, give me a reasonable, alternate course of action that should have been followed based on information available at the time.

my sister was there, i was worried about her, but at no point in time did i think to myself that the US government should rush ships or planes there to help her and other americans. she(they) chose to go there, something completely unexpected happened and now it is time to sort through the aftermath. like all critical incidents it is a process to be worked through, not a set of events easily choreographed as in a movie.

edit: and BTW, would all cellarites that i regularly insult please raise your hands? *scans the room* garnet - put your nonmeat eating hand down, you don't count. TW, i've read more condescending, insulting posts from you than i am capable of composing, so give me a break on the whole "i don't listen to lookout 'cuz he insults everyone" bit. you are highly intelligent and an excellent researcher. i would enjoy going back and forth with you more if you would realize that your views are exactly that - views. you don't have the monopoly on The Truth. answer questions when they are asked of you. i disagree with your conclusions many times, but you don't have to view that as an affront to your manhood. we should be able to discuss issues without standing on our chairs and beating our chests or peeing on the other cellarite's shoes. debates are an exchange of ideas, not a statement of fact followed by clubbing anyone who questions us, like a baby seal.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

ok tw, don't get your panties in a bunch. i've asked it and you still haven't answered, really. What would you have done? when would you have done it? where would you have sent it? who would have done it? how much money should have been in the US gov'ts initial pledge? and also they why would we do what you would suggest?

You saw those satellite photographs. Even Indonesia was desperate to learn what had happened to its western provinces and to its own troops. And yet America had those facts. You saw the pictures.

A real leader would have been on the air Sunday (or at latest Monday) declaring this a major world disaster requiring American and 1st world leadership. In the meantime it takes days to load and transist ships. The military trains to 'surge' for unexpected events. This was a 'surge' mission. Those ships should have been leaving port Sunday - Monday night at latest to be in the Indian Ocean for any and every nation that requests help. Those ships would already be there now. Countries all desperately requested help from anyone who was available. The NGOs got there - maybe even available before requests had been made for help. But instead George Jr left America unavailable even to help thousands of American citizens.

When does a leader get up before the nation and say we have a serious problem in the Indian Ocean? When does he - at minimum - go to the rescue of thousands of American citizens. A leader leads the nation in its response. This president waited to have America internationally humiliated before he even acknowledged the disaster - and only then decided to send help. What about those American citizens? Did we lose 2,000 Americans? How many are still waiting for help - while a president waits to be invited.

American help was not requested? Bull. Area nations - especially Indonesia - were desperate to find anyone who could tell them what had happened to their western proviences. India was even putting assistance into other nations - who apparently never asked for help? Bull. The island nations such as the Maldives could not even request help. They had been completely cut off - and were that desperate for outside help. And so we just sit here and pretend they did not ask? What kind of leadership is that? Mythical.

To provide help when it was needed, America had to get its first responders moving the next day. People on scene to organize any help. Instead the best we had to offer was $35 million, 6 C-130s (some say 12), and some P3 survelliance planes. Paltry response directly traceable to a president who did not lead. A president who had the facts available and instead did nothing.

You saw those satellite photos. You tell me the president would not have known or at least suspected the size and scope of this disaster. His technical people most certainly knew immediately. The disaster is so obvious that even New York Times satellite pictures make it obvious. George Jr had to be in denial. No other logic can explain his 'non response'.

The only way George Jr could not have known is if he was using the same reasoning that said, "No looting exists in Iraq." That is not leadership. That is ostrich denial. That is embarrassing. No wonder the US was internationally humiliated before George Jr finally acted. Today George Jr finally conceded the scope and seriousness of this disaster. What kind of leadership is that? Five days later, he finally conceded to the obvious. You tell me. Where is the leadership?

What would anyone have done - especially with those pictures in hand? Act like a leader. Get on the phone. Tell Indonesia why they could not contact their western proviences. Offer immediate assistance. Offer immediate transport to the NGOs who had already responded. IOW act like a leader. Acknowledge reality in those satellite photos. Don't do nothing. Do something. Lead before a world community finally shamed America into action. Unfortunately that is what it took to get George Jr off his ass.

So what would you have done? Act like the ostrich George Jr waiting for a written invite before putting emergency response to sea? Or would you have acted to obvious and deperate conditions to at least protect American and NATO lives? If you acted to be in position to protect Americans, then you did far more than George Jr.

No Lookout123. You only insulted me because I am the one who exposed the mental midget president's non-response. After waiting 5 days for him to act and after seeing those satellite photos, I now know this president deserved the international humiliation. You tell me this president was right to let people die before he started anyone moving. You saw those satellite photos. Go ahead and tell me he should have done nothing. Where does it say in the bible that a moral man does nothing to help his neighbor.

Do you wait for your neighbor to invite you to help save his burning house? Or do you go down the street to see if you can be of assistance? What would a moral man do?

[lookout123]

You tell me this president was right to let people die before he started anyone moving.

what the hell are you talking about? who died because we only pledged $35million and a small amount of military assets.

[wolf]

Very little could be done to prevent the loss of life in the areas struck by the tsunamis.

Oh, except for the folks that might have moved to higher ground if the affected countries' governments had issued the proper warnings rather than trying not to spoil the tourist's holidays.

Disaster relief occurs in stages. One of the more important, but frustrating facts of disaster relief is that you want to minimize the number of responders who become primary and secondary victims.

You can't just show up with a plane full of stuff. There has to be a place to land the plane, first off, and then a way to distribute the supplies to those in need ... that work was starting as soon as the first wave hit. But it takes time to implement.

I do recall reading one article that indicated that the US aid effectively started with the use of our surveillance planes and satellites to begin the damage assessment. That doesn't just happen. It requires orders, and those likely came from the top of the chain of command.

[staceyv]

I hate Bush. I felt sick for two days after I found out he was elected. I voted at age 28, for the first time in my life, because I hate him so much. I hate that stupid smirk and cocky laughing look on his face. I read a book, watched the debates, read the paper...I guess I am as informed as anyone else. I have very good intuition and I read two books on how to spot a lie and how to tell when someone is deceiving you (when I was with my liar ex-boyfriend). I'm very analytical, and I like to uncover what's beneath the surface, so I don't take what people say at face value. So, now that you have my prerequisites for judging this idiot, here's the truth, at least as far as I see it:
Bush is a fucking HYPOCRITE. He claims to be religious, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, etc. But then he sends us to war for personal gain and in the process, kills thousands of innocent people!! I'm not just talking about our soldiers, they were instructed to attack areas where there were a high number of innocent civilians.
And these fools believed him! People think they're doing something morally correct for their country by voting for him. Makes me sick. My grandfather voted for him. All I can say is hopefully he was afraid to change presidents in war time.
Everyone in the world thinks we are a bunch of stupid, cheap (fat) fools! And lately I'm not so proud to be American because of the president that was elected. He ruined our relationship with the UN, based his decisions on invalid information, and did you guys SEE Fahrenheit 911? He just SAT there, reading a children's book when the twin towers were being bombed.
Anti- abortion- why? so people who don't want kids can be forced to have them, raise them like shit and we'll have more people in jail, on welfare, etc?
UH! my thoughs are disorganized, I realize this won't make anyone change their mind, except to decide that they don't like ME, but whatever, I'm just disgusted with this asshole. I'm usually a better persuasive writer, but I did this all off of the top of my head, no outline of clear concise thoughs, just a rant. And 350 million is cheap, but I guess when you screw up the economy as bad as he did, there isn't much left for nice, moral stuff, is there?

[Roosta]

Re: post #4 this thread.
How on earth did you know that nothing happened for five days when the date of posting is only four days after the event?