Can I borrow your "cellar rule book"?

lumberjim · 01-30-2004, 11:13 AM

I am not aware of the existence of a cellar rulebook. Nor am i aware of a charter or a mission statement. As far as I am concerned, the whole point of an online message board, is to meet people you would otherwise never meet, and have discussions about whatever; whenever.

Lately, there has been a lot of discussion about what should and what should not be included in the forums. There has also been talk about contributing to the "community" vs. seperating threads into user forums. Juju commented recently that where the cellar he enjoyed was comprised of more serious, lengthy threads about deeper topics, lately, he has lost interest because there has been an inordinate amount of idle chit chat. Wolf, in her wisdom, replied that this too shall pass.

Bruce, I felt, very rudely, posted "chatter " in each of the threads in my new forum. As i expected, when i asked him to tell me what was on his mind, he ignored it. This is harmful behavior at best.

I could delete those posts. but i won't. i don't think there should be any restrictions set upon the content here. nor should there be pressure applied that would make someone think twice about posting what's on their mind.

I am left to assume that by his comments, bruce thinks that I post too much, or i am posting idle conversation as opposed to stimulating content. Aside from the whole Pot calling the Kettle black thing, (which i won't get into because i really don't care if bruce posts every other post on every other thread) it forces the people who read that kind of shit to then decide how they feel about it, and which side of that issue they are on.

Do you agree that Lumberjim posts too much, or chatters; or do you think bruce is just being a hammer. How does one follow a post like that? If you post to that thread, are you, then chattering too? Can we assume that chattering is a bad thing?

HP made a little stink about the recent addition of the two new user forums. He has opinions about how they should be used. He stated his thoughts plainly without dumping on anyone, and we talked about it and that was that. i think we all understand what those forums should be about, and the discussion on that thread helped to identify people's expectations regarding them.

I'm relatively new here, and there are several " inner circle" members that have been here much longer. IMO time spent on these boards does not make your opinion count any more than someone who registered this morning. if anything, the "older" member has "older" views that need to be challenged periodically by new members or they will get stagnant and contribute less to the forum. I'm new enough that i still have new (to me) ideas for thread topics. just search new topics and count how many of those thread i've started.

Discouraging conversation about a topic you've already discussed or referring someone to the old thread does nothing but discourage the person who is interested, and the people that did not see the old thread from talking about it further. The new guy might have a unique perspective about the issue or just a different opinion. This also makes them think twice about starting another new thought for fear of being "rejected" again. Juju and Wolf are both guilty of this. Isn't the reason you log into the cellar to talk about what's on people's mind right now?

My message is this:

IN MY OPINION:

Post whatever you want, whenever you want. don't censor yourself or allow others to censor you. If you want a topic discussed, start a thread. If you want a series of topics to exist in an organized manner, present your intent to the forum administrator and ask for a user forum....
And if you are not interested in a topic DON'T FUCKING READ IT! and don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts to it.

hot_pastrami · 01-30-2004, 12:18 PM

The Cellar is an excellent example of Free Speech. Anybody can say anything they want to. All are equal. Any perceived "weight" any of the older members have is because they have been around longer, proven themselves intelligent, likable, and worth listening to for whatever reason. Consequently, when someone who hasn't proven themselves challenges the "older member," the other members will throw in with the one they know, like, and trust. If the one they know and trust seems misguided, they'll advise change, and if change doesn't occur, that person will lose some status. That's how social systems work.

Yes, a member may be discouraged from saying certain things from time to time, but that person is free to ignore the discouragement. If someone can't weather some advice on how the community has evolved to work, then maybe they don't belong there. If the majority discourages a person, then it's safe bet that the person won't fit well with the community anyway. But even then, that person can still let the comments of older members bounce off like bullets off of Superman, and the consequence may be that people dislike them.

You say you don't like it when members try to censor each other, but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do when you post things like "...don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts...?" It's all subjective. To the one who posts it, it's helpful advice, trying to improve the community. To the reader, it can be criticism, censorship, etc. An open mind and thick skin are the best tools here.

The rulebook? There's only one rule I know of. You can say whatever you want. but so can everyone else. That means you may see some things you don't like once in a while. Feel free to tell them you don't like it, tell them they're an asshole. But if they disagree, they don't have to stop. The essense of Free speech, my friend.

I know where you're coming from with your message, but I think you're looking at this from a pretty limited perspective this time.

Beestie · 01-30-2004, 12:28 PM

I would add that free speech does not apply here. This space is bought and paid for and that person has allowed the Cellar to evolve into a zone that mimics a free speech zone but it pays to remember that there is a delete button next to each of our posts that we can't see.

In my whatever opinion, we are all like a group of blindfolded people in a large room. We can hear each other but not see each other. And we don't know where the wall is untill we crack our nose on it. And occasionally, we will bump into one another with some bumps being "fun" while others "not so fun." People can wander in and out as they please. And our moods and attitudes fluctuate and change unpredictably.

For all I know UT could pull the plug on the server tomorrow so let's just make the most of it while we've got it.

Undertoad · 01-30-2004, 12:53 PM

There have ever only been three "hard" rules:

- Don't use the system to break the law.
- Don't try to break the system.
- Don't be 'intolerably irritating'.

These are listed during the registration procedure and not mentioned elsewhere which is probably a mistake.

For all other matters, I don't know that there are any specific rules for anything at all. I doubt that we could come up with a Constitution and By-Laws that would apply well. I have always run it as a sort of benevolent dictatorship and just kinda made things up as we go along. Some of this stuff is written down in the "What's the Cellar" page.

The user-hosted sections have created a weird situation where people can appear to become stronger partners in the community and can define their own rules. Let's just play it by ear -- like it's always been.

Also, it seems to me that there are two "levels" of users here: those who are "Cellar people" and those who are not. You determine it yourself by answering the question: "Am I a Cellar person?" If you proudly say yes, then you are in the Elite Inner Circle. Otherwise you are not.

juju · 01-30-2004, 12:55 PM

My post in the "Prove evolution" thread was only meant as a reference. I didn't mean to imply that everyone should be forced to read it. I just wanted to let people know it was there, just in case they might find it useful for getting more information on the topic.

lumberjim · 01-30-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami
.

I know where you're coming from with your message, but I think you're looking at this from a pretty limited perspective this time.

well, yes it's my point of view. and to take your argument one step further, should i be censored from telling people not to post shitty comments? where does the loop end?

And I wasn't talking about the existence of "friends" on here. Or accusing anyone of ganging up on the new guy. Fuck, if the new guy deserves gangin up on, i'll be on top of the pile. I was approaching the "counterproductivity" of some statements made recently.

It IS interesting to observe the self correcting nature of this forum, and yes, sometimes I'm not able to see the forest for the trees. But if one tree in particular troubles me, should i ignore it always?

I am simply stating that i have observed something that disturbs me. I'm not in charge. This is just MY opinion.

wolf · 01-30-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lumberjim

Discouraging conversation about a topic you've already discussed or referring someone to the old thread ... Juju and Wolf are both guilty of this.

I could be wrong but ...

Isn't about the only time I've done such a thing related to the resurgence of the shark/dolphin thing that had finally died down when your wife posted about it? I can understand your being more sensitive to the issue under those circumstances, but it's not that frequent an occurrance ...

Frankly, I'm thrilled that you have your user-hosted forum, and hope you elaborate both enjoyable and thought-provoking experiences therein.

The nice thing about the cellar rule book is that there isn't one ... I've participated in other online forums that have extremely rigid rules regarding what you can and cannot post, which makes for extremely bland reading. You never know what you're going to encounter here next, and I hope that never changes.

Happy Monkey · 01-30-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lumberjim
Discouraging conversation about a topic you've already discussed or referring someone to the old thread does nothing but discourage the person who is interested, and the people that did not see the old thread from talking about it further.

I think you read too much into that. I like it when references are made to earlier discussions. It can provide people who read it with more insight into the lay of the land for the discussion, and people who don't want to read it don't have to.

Undertoad · 01-30-2004, 01:57 PM

To clarify on Beestie's points, I delete spam and not much else. For years and years, pre-spam days, I never deleted anything at all.

I admit I deleted a few April posts when it was clear that she was intolerably irritating and specifically disrupting everything. In the past I might have just let her go and allowed the community to police her. These days if a few deletions like that will make the community run more smoothly, in the kind of policing that the community would do anyway, well what the hey.

The "pulling the plug" thing is another matter; I may not participate as much as I do now, but I expect to keep it going forever. I consider that my responsibility, because people count on it. If I couldn't keep it any longer, or if I became less interested, etc., I would try to transfer it to someone else.

And on that point, also, if it ever seems dead just keep trying it; tech problems are inevitable but most of them can be solved in a few days.

juju · 01-30-2004, 02:11 PM

You know, it's not so much the idle chit-chat that I dislike. Getting to know people is part of what this place is all about. It's the constant "Me too" posts, and posts that contain absolutely nothing but, "Hahahah, yeah!". I really hate that. But of course, the beauty of this place is that they can say whatever they want.

hot_pastrami · 01-30-2004, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lumberjim
and to take your argument one step further, should i be censored from telling people not to post shitty comments? where does the loop end?

No you shouldn't be censored. Nor did I attempt to do so. I just pointed out a severe pot-calling-the-kettle-black moment in your post, and mentioned that the reader may take a different meaning than the poster. That's very different from trying to tell you that you can't do it. Here's the text again:

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami
You say you don't like it when members try to censor each other, but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do when you post things like "...don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts...?" It's all subjective. To the one who posts it, it's helpful advice, trying to improve the community. To the reader, it can be criticism, censorship, etc. An open mind and thick skin are the best tools here.

I agree with your opinion, but I disagree about some of the fine points in your post. I don't think anybody is trying to censor anybody here, it's just a big opinion-flinging forum. Telling somebody to "Shut the fuck up, and go away!!" IS NOT censorship. Rude as hell, sure... but it's also an exercise in free speech. No matter how much I might disagree with what somebody has to say I can't actually DO anything about it beyond rebutting. I couldn't even harrass them if I wanted to, because there's a handy Ignore button.

I think the thing about "Free speech" that most people tend to forget is that while yes, one has to allow anyone to say whatever they want, whenever they want, they don't have to listen to them. If you don't like what someone posted, you don't have to read it. You made the same point in your post, but from the other side of the issue. It applies both ways.

I've got no problem with you Jimbo, I just think you might be having a hard time seeing things from other peoples' point of view on this one.... yet ironically, that's exactly what you're asking everyone else to do in your rant above-- to see things from someone else's point of view-- isn't it? To see things from the eyes of a newbie, who just wandered into the forum, with bright, hopeful eyes and thin skin? Well, that newbie's "rights" aren't the only ones to consider. That's my point.

lumberjim · 01-30-2004, 05:56 PM

no, alan, i'm just saying "shouldn't say shouldn't" the newbies were just an example. so was what i said about wolf and juju. (yes, wolf, i can only remember you doing that once) and juju, i'm sure you were just trying to be helpful and show the location of the prior thread.

the main point i was making is that there are no rules here, and that i was noticing a recurrent theme in recent threads

that, and i was just pissed at bruce.

i'm all better now.

xoxoxoBruce · 01-30-2004, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lumberjim
I am not aware of the existence of a cellar rulebook. Nor am i aware of a charter or a mission statement. As far as I am concerned, the whole point of an online message board, is to meet people you would otherwise never meet, and have discussions about whatever; whenever.

Lately, there has been a lot of discussion about what should and what should not be included in the forums. There has also been talk about contributing to the "community" vs. seperating threads into user forums. Juju commented recently that where the cellar he enjoyed was comprised of more serious, lengthy threads about deeper topics, lately, he has lost interest because there has been an inordinate amount of idle chit chat. Wolf, in her wisdom, replied that this too shall pass.

Bruce, I felt, very rudely, posted "chatter " in each of the threads in my new forum. As i expected, when i asked him to tell me what was on his mind, he ignored it. This is harmful behavior at best.

I could delete those posts. but i won't. i don't think there should be any restrictions set upon the content here. nor should there be pressure applied that would make someone think twice about posting what's on their mind.

I am left to assume that by his comments, bruce thinks that I post too much, or i am posting idle conversation as opposed to stimulating content. Aside from the whole Pot calling the Kettle black thing, (which i won't get into because i really don't care if bruce posts every other post on every other thread) it forces the people who read that kind of shit to then decide how they feel about it, and which side of that issue they are on.

Do you agree that Lumberjim posts too much, or chatters; or do you think bruce is just being a hammer. How does one follow a post like that? If you post to that thread, are you, then chattering too? Can we assume that chattering is a bad thing?

HP made a little stink about the recent addition of the two new user forums. He has opinions about how they should be used. He stated his thoughts plainly without dumping on anyone, and we talked about it and that was that. i think we all understand what those forums should be about, and the discussion on that thread helped to identify people's expectations regarding them.

I'm relatively new here, and there are several " inner circle" members that have been here much longer. IMO time spent on these boards does not make your opinion count any more than someone who registered this morning. if anything, the "older" member has "older" views that need to be challenged periodically by new members or they will get stagnant and contribute less to the forum. I'm new enough that i still have new (to me) ideas for thread topics. just search new topics and count how many of those thread i've started.

Discouraging conversation about a topic you've already discussed or referring someone to the old thread does nothing but discourage the person who is interested, and the people that did not see the old thread from talking about it further. The new guy might have a unique perspective about the issue or just a different opinion. This also makes them think twice about starting another new thought for fear of being "rejected" again. Juju and Wolf are both guilty of this. Isn't the reason you log into the cellar to talk about what's on people's mind right now?

My message is this:

IN MY OPINION:

Post whatever you want, whenever you want. don't censor yourself or allow others to censor you. If you want a topic discussed, start a thread. If you want a series of topics to exist in an organized manner, present your intent to the forum administrator and ask for a user forum....
And if you are not interested in a topic DON'T FUCKING READ IT! and don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts to it.

Oh, calm the fuck down. This is a message board not a chat room. Don't expect me (or anyone) to forego sleep or work to answer your posts. I did when I came back on and that's all I can do.
It was a joke, Jim. Sorry you didn't get it. You might note I didn't do it in the thread that was actually active as to not disrupt the flow. Sorry, I made a bad joke, but get a grip.:p

lumberjim · 01-30-2004, 08:49 PM

ok. maybe i took it a little personally. And if your jest was truly made without malice, then i guess there's not much to say. in one thread it would have been funny. in all of them, it smacked of ill will. as far as not posting in the "active" thread goes, it wouldn't have mattered if you Had.

Here's the thing. I give a shit that the forum i'm building is composed of useable content. I'm sure I spend too much time thinking about it. When you piss in my cheerios that early in the forum's development, it does damage. Damage to the thread's credibility, and damage to my confidence about it. yeah, i know i'm being a drama queen This is why i reacted as strongly as i did, and, in conjunction with the other things i cried about in that first post, (and a little commiseration with a family member) i sorta flipped my lid a little tiny bit and named names and all of that other shit i said. and.....eh, it's all good.

Quote:

Oh, calm the fuck down. This is a message board not a chat room. Don't expect me (or anyone) to forego sleep or work to answer your posts. I did when I came back on and that's all I can do.

i figgered you'd seen my post because of this:

Quote:

from pa tax increase thread

xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten

Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 4586

We should have a 37% tax on newspapers. They are wasteful of resources, completely unnecessary with the digital mediums available, and cost a fortune to handle in the waste stream.

__________________
A world of stark simplicity, where the law of nature is the law of the land.
A law that hears no pleas, offers no leniency, feels no pity.

01-30-2004 04:49 AM

Undertoad · 01-30-2004, 09:28 PM

People always take shit completely seriously and then they get pissed off and leave the board.

01-30-2004, 11:13 AM	#1
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	Can I borrow your "cellar rule book"? I am not aware of the existence of a cellar rulebook. Nor am i aware of a charter or a mission statement. As far as I am concerned, the whole point of an online message board, is to meet people you would otherwise never meet, and have discussions about whatever; whenever. Lately, there has been a lot of discussion about what should and what should not be included in the forums. There has also been talk about contributing to the "community" vs. seperating threads into user forums. Juju commented recently that where the cellar he enjoyed was comprised of more serious, lengthy threads about deeper topics, lately, he has lost interest because there has been an inordinate amount of idle chit chat. Wolf, in her wisdom, replied that this too shall pass. Bruce, I felt, very rudely, posted "chatter " in each of the threads in my new forum. As i expected, when i asked him to tell me what was on his mind, he ignored it. This is harmful behavior at best. I could delete those posts. but i won't. i don't think there should be any restrictions set upon the content here. nor should there be pressure applied that would make someone think twice about posting what's on their mind. I am left to assume that by his comments, bruce thinks that I post too much, or i am posting idle conversation as opposed to stimulating content. Aside from the whole Pot calling the Kettle black thing, (which i won't get into because i really don't care if bruce posts every other post on every other thread) it forces the people who read that kind of shit to then decide how they feel about it, and which side of that issue they are on. Do you agree that Lumberjim posts too much, or chatters; or do you think bruce is just being a hammer. How does one follow a post like that? If you post to that thread, are you, then chattering too? Can we assume that chattering is a bad thing? HP made a little stink about the recent addition of the two new user forums. He has opinions about how they should be used. He stated his thoughts plainly without dumping on anyone, and we talked about it and that was that. i think we all understand what those forums should be about, and the discussion on that thread helped to identify people's expectations regarding them. I'm relatively new here, and there are several " inner circle" members that have been here much longer. IMO time spent on these boards does not make your opinion count any more than someone who registered this morning. if anything, the "older" member has "older" views that need to be challenged periodically by new members or they will get stagnant and contribute less to the forum. I'm new enough that i still have new (to me) ideas for thread topics. just search new topics and count how many of those thread i've started. Discouraging conversation about a topic you've already discussed or referring someone to the old thread does nothing but discourage the person who is interested, and the people that did not see the old thread from talking about it further. The new guy might have a unique perspective about the issue or just a different opinion. This also makes them think twice about starting another new thought for fear of being "rejected" again. Juju and Wolf are both guilty of this. Isn't the reason you log into the cellar to talk about what's on people's mind right now? My message is this: IN MY OPINION: Post whatever you want, whenever you want. don't censor yourself or allow others to censor you. If you want a topic discussed, start a thread. If you want a series of topics to exist in an organized manner, present your intent to the forum administrator and ask for a user forum.... And if you are not interested in a topic DON'T FUCKING READ IT! and don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts to it. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

01-30-2004, 12:18 PM	#2
hot_pastrami I am meaty Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Salt Lake City, UT Posts: 1,119	The Cellar is an excellent example of Free Speech. Anybody can say anything they want to. All are equal. Any perceived "weight" any of the older members have is because they have been around longer, proven themselves intelligent, likable, and worth listening to for whatever reason. Consequently, when someone who hasn't proven themselves challenges the "older member," the other members will throw in with the one they know, like, and trust. If the one they know and trust seems misguided, they'll advise change, and if change doesn't occur, that person will lose some status. That's how social systems work. Yes, a member may be discouraged from saying certain things from time to time, but that person is free to ignore the discouragement. If someone can't weather some advice on how the community has evolved to work, then maybe they don't belong there. If the majority discourages a person, then it's safe bet that the person won't fit well with the community anyway. But even then, that person can still let the comments of older members bounce off like bullets off of Superman, and the consequence may be that people dislike them. You say you don't like it when members try to censor each other, but isn't that exactly what you're trying to do when you post things like "...don't post a shitty comment that could make others think twice about contributing their thoughts...?" It's all subjective. To the one who posts it, it's helpful advice, trying to improve the community. To the reader, it can be criticism, censorship, etc. An open mind and thick skin are the best tools here. The rulebook? There's only one rule I know of. You can say whatever you want. but so can everyone else. That means you may see some things you don't like once in a while. Feel free to tell them you don't like it, tell them they're an asshole. But if they disagree, they don't have to stop. The essense of Free speech, my friend. I know where you're coming from with your message, but I think you're looking at this from a pretty limited perspective this time. __________________ Hot Pastrami!

01-30-2004, 12:28 PM	#3
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	I would add that free speech does not apply here. This space is bought and paid for and that person has allowed the Cellar to evolve into a zone that mimics a free speech zone but it pays to remember that there is a delete button next to each of our posts that we can't see. In my whatever opinion, we are all like a group of blindfolded people in a large room. We can hear each other but not see each other. And we don't know where the wall is untill we crack our nose on it. And occasionally, we will bump into one another with some bumps being "fun" while others "not so fun." People can wander in and out as they please. And our moods and attitudes fluctuate and change unpredictably. For all I know UT could pull the plug on the server tomorrow so let's just make the most of it while we've got it. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

01-30-2004, 05:56 PM	#12
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	no, alan, i'm just saying "shouldn't say shouldn't" the newbies were just an example. so was what i said about wolf and juju. (yes, wolf, i can only remember you doing that once) and juju, i'm sure you were just trying to be helpful and show the location of the prior thread. the main point i was making is that there are no rules here, and that i was noticing a recurrent theme in recent threads that, and i was just pissed at bruce. i'm all better now. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

01-30-2004, 12:53 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	There have ever only been three "hard" rules: - Don't use the system to break the law. - Don't try to break the system. - Don't be 'intolerably irritating'. These are listed during the registration procedure and not mentioned elsewhere which is probably a mistake. For all other matters, I don't know that there are any specific rules for anything at all. I doubt that we could come up with a Constitution and By-Laws that would apply well. I have always run it as a sort of benevolent dictatorship and just kinda made things up as we go along. Some of this stuff is written down in the "What's the Cellar" page. The user-hosted sections have created a weird situation where people can appear to become stronger partners in the community and can define their own rules. Let's just play it by ear -- like it's always been. Also, it seems to me that there are two "levels" of users here: those who are "Cellar people" and those who are not. You determine it yourself by answering the question: "Am I a Cellar person?" If you proudly say yes, then you are in the Elite Inner Circle. Otherwise you are not.

01-30-2004, 12:55 PM	#5
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	My post in the "Prove evolution" thread was only meant as a reference. I didn't mean to imply that everyone should be forced to read it. I just wanted to let people know it was there, just in case they might find it useful for getting more information on the topic.

01-30-2004, 01:57 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	To clarify on Beestie's points, I delete spam and not much else. For years and years, pre-spam days, I never deleted anything at all. I admit I deleted a few April posts when it was clear that she was intolerably irritating and specifically disrupting everything. In the past I might have just let her go and allowed the community to police her. These days if a few deletions like that will make the community run more smoothly, in the kind of policing that the community would do anyway, well what the hey. The "pulling the plug" thing is another matter; I may not participate as much as I do now, but I expect to keep it going forever. I consider that my responsibility, because people count on it. If I couldn't keep it any longer, or if I became less interested, etc., I would try to transfer it to someone else. And on that point, also, if it ever seems dead just keep trying it; tech problems are inevitable but most of them can be solved in a few days.

01-30-2004, 02:11 PM	#10
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	You know, it's not so much the idle chit-chat that I dislike. Getting to know people is part of what this place is all about. It's the constant "Me too" posts, and posts that contain absolutely nothing but, "Hahahah, yeah!". I really hate that. But of course, the beauty of this place is that they can say whatever they want.

01-30-2004, 09:28 PM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	People always take shit completely seriously and then they get pissed off and leave the board.

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