voters information rights

SteveDallas · 03-11-2003, 11:48 AM

There's a question that came to me as I was reading an article about new voting machines somewhere in California. (The machines use a touchscreen input and then print out a ballot which is pre-marked.) I thought I'd throw it out for the legal (and not-so-legal) minds here to dissect.

As a US citizen, of course I have a right to vote, and a right to vote anonymously. What I want to know is, do I have a right to verify that my vote was counted and that it was indeed recorded in favor of the candidates I selected? All I did was sign a card, flip some switches, and pull the lever. For all I know there was a bad switch on my machine that caused my straight anarchist ticket to be counted in favor of the libertarians. Yes, I know they inspect the machines etc. etc.... but... I don't know. Do I have any right to go back and verify that my vote was counted the way I wanted it to be counted?

Undertoad · 03-11-2003, 12:10 PM

There is no way to do that completely. The voting process varies greatly from state to state.

Where you live in PA, you can almost certainly take all the steps you need to guarantee your own poll's accuracy, by requesting to the local authorities that you want to be a "poll watcher". That way you can watch the counting process and help verify that the numbers they report are the numbers that come out of the machines and the absentee ballots.

They may tell you to pound sand, but if you approach your local committeeperson and volunteer to watch on behalf of a candidate, they probably won't.

Alternately, in PA you can ask whether there are enough election officials in your district and possibly run for Judge of Elections or Inspector of Elections. Each polling place has one of the former and two of the latter. The latter are Majority and Minority, where Majority is in the political party in charge of the county, and Minority is anyone else. The up side is that you get paid a nominal amount. The down side is that you have to sit at the polls all day and verify signatures and stuff.

Skunks · 03-11-2003, 12:41 PM

When I read his post, UT, my first thought was that he was referring to the machines crapping out the right ballot, not the counting process thereafter.

I still hold to that, so:

They'd be kinda stupid to print out entirely non-human-readable ballots, wouldn't they?

SteveDallas · 03-11-2003, 01:18 PM

Actually, I was sort of trying to be maximally skeptical about the accuracy of the whole process. So indeed, I would ask, "That's nice, we can make sure that the numbers on the machine are reported accurately. But how do we know that the machines are tabulating the numbers accurately in the first place? More specifically, how can I (as an average private citizen, not a poll watcher or election judge) simply verify that my vote for a particular candidate has been tabulated accurately?"

Cam · 03-11-2003, 01:42 PM

maybe they should print out a small piece of paper from the machine after you vote that you then put in a ballot box or something similiar. That way if someone feels that something is wrong there is a hard copy that can be used. Also the voter has something they can look at and affirm that the vote cast is the one that was counted.

Jakeline · 03-11-2003, 02:10 PM

Here's a very interesting article about this whole issue: http://archive.salon.com/tech/featur...ting_machines/

For folks who don't want to read the whole thing, here's the gist of it:

There are several different types of touch-screen voting machines, but they generally break down into two different categories: the ones that print out human / machine readable ballots, and the others that do all the tabulating without a paper record. The machines that do the tabulating without the paper use proprietary formats, and their method of tabulation is considered a "trade secret." So, if you want to challenge the validity of the results and inspect the machine yourself, too damn bad (at least that's what a judge ruled in Florida.)

Personally, one of my friends is blind and tried using a vote-by-touchtone thing for the 2000 election. It was horrible, and he inadvertently voted for the wrong person. Technology is cool, but I'm not sure the idea has been fully hashed out.

03-11-2003, 11:48 AM	#1
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	voters information rights There's a question that came to me as I was reading an article about new voting machines somewhere in California. (The machines use a touchscreen input and then print out a ballot which is pre-marked.) I thought I'd throw it out for the legal (and not-so-legal) minds here to dissect. As a US citizen, of course I have a right to vote, and a right to vote anonymously. What I want to know is, do I have a right to verify that my vote was counted and that it was indeed recorded in favor of the candidates I selected? All I did was sign a card, flip some switches, and pull the lever. For all I know there was a bad switch on my machine that caused my straight anarchist ticket to be counted in favor of the libertarians. Yes, I know they inspect the machines etc. etc.... but... I don't know. Do I have any right to go back and verify that my vote was counted the way I wanted it to be counted?

03-11-2003, 01:42 PM	#5
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	maybe they should print out a small piece of paper from the machine after you vote that you then put in a ballot box or something similiar. That way if someone feels that something is wrong there is a hard copy that can be used. Also the voter has something they can look at and affirm that the vote cast is the one that was counted. __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail.

03-11-2003, 12:10 PM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	There is no way to do that completely. The voting process varies greatly from state to state. Where you live in PA, you can almost certainly take all the steps you need to guarantee your own poll's accuracy, by requesting to the local authorities that you want to be a "poll watcher". That way you can watch the counting process and help verify that the numbers they report are the numbers that come out of the machines and the absentee ballots. They may tell you to pound sand, but if you approach your local committeeperson and volunteer to watch on behalf of a candidate, they probably won't. Alternately, in PA you can ask whether there are enough election officials in your district and possibly run for Judge of Elections or Inspector of Elections. Each polling place has one of the former and two of the latter. The latter are Majority and Minority, where Majority is in the political party in charge of the county, and Minority is anyone else. The up side is that you get paid a nominal amount. The down side is that you have to sit at the polls all day and verify signatures and stuff.

03-11-2003, 12:41 PM	#3
Skunks I thought I changed this. Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: western nowhere, ny Posts: 412	When I read his post, UT, my first thought was that he was referring to the machines crapping out the right ballot, not the counting process thereafter. I still hold to that, so: They'd be kinda stupid to print out entirely non-human-readable ballots, wouldn't they?

03-11-2003, 01:18 PM	#4
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	Actually, I was sort of trying to be maximally skeptical about the accuracy of the whole process. So indeed, I would ask, "That's nice, we can make sure that the numbers on the machine are reported accurately. But how do we know that the machines are tabulating the numbers accurately in the first place? More specifically, how can I (as an average private citizen, not a poll watcher or election judge) simply verify that my vote for a particular candidate has been tabulated accurately?"

03-11-2003, 02:10 PM	#6
Jakeline Disorderly Orderly Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Southern California Posts: 54	Here's a very interesting article about this whole issue: http://archive.salon.com/tech/featur...ting_machines/ For folks who don't want to read the whole thing, here's the gist of it: There are several different types of touch-screen voting machines, but they generally break down into two different categories: the ones that print out human / machine readable ballots, and the others that do all the tabulating without a paper record. The machines that do the tabulating without the paper use proprietary formats, and their method of tabulation is considered a "trade secret." So, if you want to challenge the validity of the results and inspect the machine yourself, too damn bad (at least that's what a judge ruled in Florida.) Personally, one of my friends is blind and tried using a vote-by-touchtone thing for the 2000 election. It was horrible, and he inadvertently voted for the wrong person. Technology is cool, but I'm not sure the idea has been fully hashed out.

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