Elbows on the table

[Cloud]

I chastised grandson for putting elbows on the table at a restaurant recently, and BDNo. 2 (who's into Questioning Authority) these days, said, why? and why do we have to follow customs we don't understand or don't have a purpose?

A very quick perusal of ze almighty interwebs suggests these possible reasons for the taboo:

--it's unhygienic to put body parts on the table
--you could tip over cups and bowls
--you could tip over the table
--it makes other diners feel crowded
--it's bad for your digestion
--shows you're focused only on the food and not the company

in other words . . . no one knows why. Or , all of the above.

yes, I know this is only loosely related to "Food and Drink" but what the hey

[glatt]

There are all sorts of table manners out there that have no logical explanation behind them but that have become accepted as "correct." In my opinion, the only reason to follow those particular manners would be to conform to what is considered "correct." Often in this life, conforming is very helpful, and the kids will be glad to know proper manners when they are older.

My wife and I have disagreements sometimes on how much to expect from our children when it comes to table manners. I generally agree with her that the kids should know what good table manners are, and the best way to do that is to practice them at home. But I also believe that one should be comfortable, and putting elbows on the table is a pretty minor thing.

I do things like put my elbows on the table. I also ignore the American custom of switching the fork and knife back and forth from hand to hand when cutting meat and putting the pieces in my mouth. I know it's "wrong" but don't care, because it's stupid. She wishes I would be a perfect example of manners in front of the kids.

Mostly I focus on things like making sure the kids sit on their bottoms and stay in their seats. Don't talk with full mouths. Don't over-reach for stuff. Etc. Although to be honest, I'm not always consistent with enforcing that.

Manners often have a purpose, but are sometimes just stupid and arbitrary.

[HungLikeJesus]

Do you eat your peas off your knife?

[DanaC]

I also ignore the American custom of switching the fork and knife back and forth from hand to hand when cutting meat and putting the pieces in my mouth.

I wasn't aware of that custom.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I wasn't aware of that custom.

It's very stupid.

The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late introduction of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as meat, require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size. When this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the tines point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right hand operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner sets the knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so that it can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls this the "zig-zag" style.

[classicman]

I've never heard of that one before.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I wasn't aware of that custom.

Really?
I've never seen it, but read about it lots. Bill Bryson mentions it for example...
I remember a friend coming round to dinner, leaning on one elbow and eating only with her fork. My Mum dismissed it as "that's what the Americans do" as if she'd sunk about as low as she could go We were only about 11, so table manners were a big thing, and the way you behaved in front of other people's parents was a sign of respect - in this case a perceived lack of.

I've always been allowed my elbows on the table when relaxing and talking before and after the meal. Unless Nan was there. Then she'd bore us with stories of her strict Grnadmother who would whack them across the kuckles with her metal topped cane or say, "Joints on the table will be carved, cooked or not" while brandishing a carving knife! We never had elbows on the table while eating though.

I suppose it shows a slovenly attitude with is disrespectful both to company and to the cook.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Cloud

it makes other diners feel crowded

This is the only one that counts in my book. We're often eating around a rather crowded table, and to usurp table space for your arms would mean physically encroaching on other people's space. But otherwise this is not one we even consider. We have a hard enough time getting the oldest to remember to chew with her mouth closed.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Knife? Fork? What are these things you speak of?

[Shawnee123]

I don't see a problem with elbows if you're conversing before or after meal, as SG says. Leaning on one elbow and shoveling food from a fork into your mouth...ooooh, Dad would not have allowed that!

The zig zag thing: I have read a few things about the European style and American style. I actually try to do less of the zig zag because it is kind of silly when you think about it. I noticed my 6 year old niece eating like a European; I guess she hasn't been told the "custom" yet. I think custom is an odd choice of word for the practice. It's not like tribal leaders ('rents) stand at the head of the table, bless the food, and announce "now we shall commence with the ancient custom of our ancestors: switching the fork and knife. ahhhhhhhhhmennnnnnnnnnnnn."

I mean, we just do it. Everyone we see growing up does it. It's not really a tradition, or a ritual, or a custom. It's just aping.

[wolf]

My Equadorian friend has a different set of table rules, the most important of which is that you should never ever ever put your hands below the level of the table. Apparently it's a way of making sure that you don't get shot or stabbed by a fellow diner.

[DanaC]

My Dad was pretty strict about that sort of thing. Fortunately Mum wasn't :P Between them they balanced each other out.

[kerosene]

Elbows on the table bugs me, but I can't determine why, logically. Also, chewing with the mouth open...making that smacking noise...grosses me out for some reason. I am constantly reminding our kids to close their mouths. Reaching across the table is another one. slurping spaghetti...uuuurrrrg! I am to the point where I just cut it up into tiny bits before I give it to them.

[TheMercenary]

Interesting discussion.

My Mom and Dad were pretty strict about it when we were growing up as well. Things went like this: Kids (5 of us) were responsible to set the table, usually fell on me or my sister as we were the youngest and more likely to be hanging about the kitchen when we were going to have dinner. You could not be late for dinner unless you had been formally excused from dinner or had written permission from the pope. No one would eat or serve til Dad and everyone else sat down and only after grace was said. Then things were passed, and always to the left only, never to the right. You never took the last helping without asking permission. You had to clean your plate of all food before you could leave the table and you could not leave until everyone finished or you would be in trouble. You did not leave the table unless you asked for permission, which was not always granted. No talking with food in your mouth. Zig-zag technique was mandatory, although it did not have a name back then, you just did it that way. All meat was to be cut into bite sized bits before eating. Shirts and shoes were required, no hats, no hats on in the house for that matter. No elbows on the table, "Elbows off the table Mable, this is not a horses stable". Use of the napkin was mandatory and in your lap when not in immediate use. No arguments at dinner. Dishwashing duty was rotated among all five by two's, one wash, one dryer/put awayer (no electric dishwashers). Anyone who failed to finish their food sat at the table for hours until said food was eaten. It was fairly strict. Things relaxed as more and more kids went off to college.

Dad was a Naval Officer and the High School Principal.

Us, not so strict. We are lucky to have a family meal as busy as kids are now days. As the kids are off and gone to college we do enjoy a sit down more now than before when they come home.

[BigV]

What a revealing post.