Anzac Cove Roadworks

[Aliantha]

Most people will have a basic knowledge of what happened at Gallipoli between Australian and New Zealand forces and the Turkish army, so it's not really surprising that the site has a high cultural and historic significance to most Australians and New Zealanders.

Recently, roadworks were conducted through the area which is now a national park, with the approval of the Australian government.

There is now a fuss going on because other works were carried out which have exhumed the remains of some ANZAC soldiers.

I understand that it's not a pleasant situation to have occured, and I'm sure all involved would have preferred not to have to deal with this issue, but I'm at a loss as to why the Australian government should have any say in where another country puts its roads, regardless of the significance of the site to Australian people.

Am I being heartless or do you think it's reasonable?

[TheMercenary]

I think it is reasonable to protect any site which contains human remains. I think it is even more resonable for the nation of Austrailia to protest as this site contains a historically significant event for your country. In the US we cease construction when human remains are discovered and usually we have professional anthropologists and historians excavate the site and remove or transports the remains to an appropriate resting site. You certainly do not just lay cement over them for a road, or ignore what you dig up with a back hoe. JMHO.

Yea, I'd be pissed if I was an Aussie. Most of those boys were volunteers who had no idea what they had gotten themselves into until it was to late.

[Aliantha]

Well, it's my understanding that no one intended to actually excavate human remains. What happened was entirely accidental.

The problem is, the whole site is littered with bodies, but thousands of people want access to the site every year. The Turkish government really had no choice but to build a road, and they did consult with the relevant authorities in Australia about the location of the road.

To me, this is more about unhealed wounds where some Australian people still want to hate the Turkish for doing what they themselves would have been ordered to do had the position been reversed.

It is a terrible time in our history and really did define us as a nation in a lot of ways. It changed our history forever.

I'm just not sure that there should be this uproar over what was first of all, an accident, and secondly, towards a country that has virtually gifted a huge tract of land to Australia and New Zealand and still bears the cost of caring for the site on a day to day basis. The Turkish people have shown that they'd like to honour us and our spirit. I just wish Australian people could see that although we should never forget, we must acknowledge that the world has changed. Old enemies are not our enemies now.

[TheMercenary]

I can see your point but I do think the onus is on the Turks to find, and if possible in conjunction with representatives of your military, Id the remains and bury them in a suitable location as the buiding moves forward. All due care should be taken to preserve the battlefield IMHO.

[Aliantha]

It's been turned into a national park. I don't think they could do much more to be honest.

They let thousands of us roll up every year to remember our lost heros.

eta: Of course we would all like to see these men recovered and identified, but that's virtually impossible, so we must do what we can to honour them in other ways.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

eta: Of course we would all like to see these men recovered and identified, but that's virtually impossible, ...

Why is that impossible? We are still doing that with bodies from Vietnam, Korea, WWII, and other older wars. Even bodies of the Romanov family were recently identified by Russia. All depends on how much money they are worth to be honored.

[Aliantha]

I said 'virtually' impossible. Be realistic tw. The bodies are littered all over the place, and not just Australian ones. Turks as well, and NZers, on top of other allies and troops involved in the battle.

I'm sure being a knowledgable person you know what happened at gallipoli. Consider that and then you'll know.

Incidentally, Australia is still retrieving bodies from Vietnam and other wars we've been involved in too. There's nothing new about that concept.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I said 'virtually' impossible. Be realistic tw. The bodies are littered all over the place, and not just Australian ones.

I have only said the same thing you have. Its not impossible. Its simply a question of how much one needs to 'honor' them. It is only impossible because the cost does not justify the tribute. Or as you phrased it, "virtually impossible". Same thing.

[Aliantha]

Nope, not the same thing, and it's not a black and white issue, and it has very little to do with money. The ground has been consecrated, so in effect it is a mass grave.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

The ground has been consecrated, so in effect it is a mass grave.

So which is it? Consecrated land or land that "but I'm at a loss as to why the Australian government should have any say in where another country puts its roads, regardless of the significance of the site to Australian people." If conserated, then why would the Turks have a right or decency to put it roads where it sees fit?

[Aliantha]

tw, did you not read that they put the road in after (and probably because of) consultation with Australia and NZ. It's not the road itself that's the problem, it's the additional works that people are upset about.

Once again, my issue is that the land has basically been allocated to Australia and NZ as a memorial for all we lost during that battle. A generous gesture on the part of the Turks who were certainly under no obligation to do so. They have allowed Australian and NZ people to visit the area en masse every year since, and the numbers are still growing.

I don't imagine, that after all those gestures, the Turks would go ahead and do something to deliberately upset any of us. It would seem more likely that they (possibly thoughtlessly) decided to add something extra and it blew up in their faces.

Once again, I think the Turks have been incredibly hospitable, and when it all comes down to it, I don't believe one country should have the right to tell another where to put its roads.

[ZenGum]

I think that Turkey is quite generous towards Australia and New Zealand about this issue. After all, we were invading them. Yet I have seen one elderly Turkish man expressing sentiments like "when your sons died in our land they became our sons and we will care for them".

But the site of Gallipoli is also important to Turkey. An important step towards Modern Turkey was taken there, and Kemal Ataturk's success there was important in his rise and the founding of Post-Ottoman Turkey.

The Ottoman empire was virtually paralyzed with corruption, inaction, laziness of senior officials. Kemal took command and grasped the importance and urgency of immediately containing and crushing the landings. He is said to have instructed his troops: "I do not expect you to attack. I order you to die!". And very many did.

Turkey honours this place too, for here their sons fell to defend and rebuild their own nation.

[Aliantha]

Thankyou for putting that so well Zen. Actually, your post brought a tear to my eye.

Very eloquently put. I wish I could have said it half as well.

[Sundae]

I'll make a point of thinking of them on Remebrance Sunday. Thanks for that Zen, and for raising the topic (oof, sorry) Ali.