Propagation of musical phrases

Flint · 02-18-2010, 01:08 PM

I hear a very similar, but not identical, phrase being played on the snare drum in these three disparate songs (from three different decades). I have linked to right before the phrase is played (thanks to Bruce's Youtube tricks).

Led Zeppelin - The Rover, from Physical Graffiti (1974). John Bohnam on drums.

The Police - Wrapped Around Your Finger (fadeout--ADJUST YOUR VOLUME), from Synchronicity (1983). Stewart Copeland on drums.

John Mayer - No Such Thing, from his debut album Inside Wants Out (1999). Studio/session drummer Nir Zidkyahu.

I have a few theories, just based on a gut feeling. I think Nir Zidkyahu was pulling an obvious “Copeland” lick in the John Mayer track. You probably can't link Copeland's phrase back to Bonham's, but I thought the similarity of the idea was interesting. I think Bohnam could have been emulating some obscure Motown phrase (much like the famous intro to Rock and Roll, i.e. the intro to Little Richard’s Keep a Knockin’). Does anyone know of an earlier example of the Bohnam/Copeland/Zidkyahu drum phrase?

Have you ever noticed this type of thing in the music you listen to?

Cloud · 02-18-2010, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

Have you ever noticed this type of thing in the music you listen to?

never.ever.

lumberjim · 02-18-2010, 02:33 PM

not with drums, but with guitar riffs....

a couple songs have the same intro.... it's just a matter of math. there are only so many notes to be played, and so many combinations....

Pete Zicato · 02-18-2010, 03:53 PM

In jazz it's considered acceptable and honorable to steal cool 'changes' (chord patterns). There are a number of jazz tunes based on the changes in "I've Got Rhythm". That chord pattern is known as the "rhythm changes".

That's the most popular one, but there are others. "Doxy" and "Things are Getting Better" have the same changes, for instance.

Other shorter bits like ii-V-I and I-VI-ii-V are so common that they are used as drills.

lumberjim · 02-18-2010, 04:15 PM

and just a couple of notes in this:

Flint · 02-18-2010, 04:38 PM

That's a good one, lumberjim. The tone of the guitar, the backdrop of the song, and those two notes all come together in that instant.

Due to my freaky photographic music memory, I'd think of that every time I heard it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I don't mean it to knock the artists, at all. It's just my own "rain man" thing that makes it so jarring. As noted, you have #1: a limited number of notes/combinations, and #2: the concept of passing down musical ideas and paying respects via "the sincerest form of flattery" and all that. And, it sincerely must be accidental probably most of the time.

lumberjim · 02-18-2010, 04:44 PM

I had never heard that Sabbath song until 10 minutes before that post went.

probably only noticed it because of this thread.

Flint · 02-18-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

In jazz it's considered acceptable and honorable to steal cool 'changes' (chord patterns). There are a number of jazz tunes based on the changes in "I've Got Rhythm". That chord pattern is known as the "rhythm changes".

That's the most popular one, but there are others. "Doxy" and "Things are Getting Better" have the same changes, for instance.

Other shorter bits like ii-V-I and I-VI-ii-V are so common that they are used as drills.

And then you have Blues. Because the changes are so well understood by everyone... anyone can sit right in and know exactly what is going on. And, you have the opportunity to express yourself in the "little things" you do. We literally used to hire bass players to play gigs, and have them show up at the venue, and the guitar player just leans over before song and tells the guy what key this one is in.

Undertoad · 02-18-2010, 05:02 PM

Those are all very subtle. My favorite "snare 16th notes with some beats dropped out" song is

Robert Palmer - Bad Case of Lovin' You

No start time needed, they just blast right into the song with it and then they keep doing it over and over, right in your face. It amazed me back in the day, because I never heard a simple snare part so completely define the song.

jinx · 03-05-2010, 10:34 PM

02-18-2010, 02:33 PM	#3
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	not with drums, but with guitar riffs.... a couple songs have the same intro.... it's just a matter of math. there are only so many notes to be played, and so many combinations.... __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

02-18-2010, 03:53 PM	#4
Pete Zicato Turns out my CRS is a symptom of TMB. Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Chicago suburbs Posts: 2,916	In jazz it's considered acceptable and honorable to steal cool 'changes' (chord patterns). There are a number of jazz tunes based on the changes in "I've Got Rhythm". That chord pattern is known as the "rhythm changes". That's the most popular one, but there are others. "Doxy" and "Things are Getting Better" have the same changes, for instance. Other shorter bits like ii-V-I and I-VI-ii-V are so common that they are used as drills. __________________ Talk nerdy to me.

02-18-2010, 04:15 PM	#5
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	and just a couple of notes in this: __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

02-18-2010, 04:38 PM	#6
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	That's a good one, lumberjim. The tone of the guitar, the backdrop of the song, and those two notes all come together in that instant. Due to my freaky photographic music memory, I'd think of that every time I heard it. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I don't mean it to knock the artists, at all. It's just my own "rain man" thing that makes it so jarring. As noted, you have #1: a limited number of notes/combinations, and #2: the concept of passing down musical ideas and paying respects via "the sincerest form of flattery" and all that. And, it sincerely must be accidental probably most of the time. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

02-18-2010, 04:44 PM	#7
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	I had never heard that Sabbath song until 10 minutes before that post went. probably only noticed it because of this thread. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

02-18-2010, 01:08 PM	#1
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Propagation of musical phrases I hear a very similar, but not identical, phrase being played on the snare drum in these three disparate songs (from three different decades). I have linked to right before the phrase is played (thanks to Bruce's Youtube tricks). Led Zeppelin - The Rover, from Physical Graffiti (1974). John Bohnam on drums. The Police - Wrapped Around Your Finger (fadeout--ADJUST YOUR VOLUME), from Synchronicity (1983). Stewart Copeland on drums. John Mayer - No Such Thing, from his debut album Inside Wants Out (1999). Studio/session drummer Nir Zidkyahu. I have a few theories, just based on a gut feeling. I think Nir Zidkyahu was pulling an obvious “Copeland” lick in the John Mayer track. You probably can't link Copeland's phrase back to Bonham's, but I thought the similarity of the idea was interesting. I think Bohnam could have been emulating some obscure Motown phrase (much like the famous intro to Rock and Roll, i.e. the intro to Little Richard’s Keep a Knockin’). Does anyone know of an earlier example of the Bohnam/Copeland/Zidkyahu drum phrase? Have you ever noticed this type of thing in the music you listen to? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio** Last edited by Flint; 02-18-2010 at 01:18 PM.

02-18-2010, 05:02 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Those are all very subtle. My favorite "snare 16th notes with some beats dropped out" song is Robert Palmer - Bad Case of Lovin' You No start time needed, they just blast right into the song with it and then they keep doing it over and over, right in your face. It amazed me back in the day, because I never heard a simple snare part so completely define the song.

03-05-2010, 10:34 PM	#10
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	__________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

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