Subdivisions (Rush) - The Greatest Rock Drumming Ever?

[Flint]

This song continues to amaze me in a special way. The compositional structure of the drum part for this song is beyond reproach, it's perfect. The component rhythmic structures are well defined and interesting, adding the right atmosphere for each section of the song, and the sections are well-defined without sounding disconnected. Every technical ability Neil utilizes is something that, after hearing him do it that way, I can copy, I can rip off - I can play the song, but he was the genius who thought of doing it that way.

Above and beyond that is the extended "Subdivisions" metaphor in the lyrics, which were ALSO written by Neil. Subdivisions in society, geographical subdivisions, and the silent, or implied reference to MUSICAL subdivisions (the structure of time-keeping components upon which everything is based) . . .

[Undertoad]

I agree with this, and was forced to bring the song up on Rhapsody to hear it again. Peart detractors can blow me, he did that stuff in the context of a three-piece band which is where you have to fill everything out as much as possible and say as much as possible.

I worked in a three-piece context for a few gigs, and I don't like it. It's scary, and very difficult to do well.

[Flint]

I've been playing a very loose, very casual, bi-weekly saturday gig for about six months now . . . and I've found that a really good keyboard player and a really good drummer just need one additional player on any kind of strings, be it bass or guitar, acoustic or otherwise, just to fill things out. It's also much better to have the bass player, because the keyboard guy is crippled if he has to play basslines.

I understand what you're saying, though, it is nerve-racking. This gig I have now is different, though, because it's so low-pressure, we're just F-ing around half the time, one guy will start on a groove and we play around with it until it's exhausted. If this were a serious gig, the three-piece would sort of be, much less fun, and much more work.

[mrnoodle]

The more members a band has, regardless of how intricate the music is, the "easier" it is to sound good. Any space that another instrument is filling is space that you don't have to fill yourself. A three-piece band has a unique dynamic and special requirements for its members if it's going to sound better than mediocre. King's X is another killer 3-piece.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The more members a band has, regardless of how intricate the music is, the "easier" it is to sound good. Any space that another instrument is filling is space that you don't have to fill yourself.

That's right, mrnoodle, but another thing to keep in mind is you don't want a bunch of guitar players jacking off all over the place. I dream of a guitar player who can lay back in the groove and play very few notes.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

That's right, mrnoodle, but another thing to keep in mind is you don't want a bunch of guitar players jacking off all over the place. I dream of a guitar player who can lay back in the groove and play very few notes.

heh. You don't wanna listen to my band then.

Although you make a good point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't.

[Ibby]

I dunno bout Subdivisions specifically, but I know the best drumming IS by Peart. Personally I love Der Trommler off the R30, blows away any drum solo except Moby Dick (well, really, DT is better but I have a soft spot for Bonzo).

[Beestie]

A question from a musical moron: What's the diff between a 3 pc band and a 4 pc band where in the 3 pc one of the 3 adds vocals (as opposed to having a singer who does not play an instrument)?

Its not hard to see your point when a new person /new instrument (e.g., keyboard, etc.) is added to the basic elements of lead/rythm, bass, percussion & vocals.

I used to love Rush. I bought their double live album back in '75± and thought they were just amazing. But have to admit that Lee's vocals were just too nasal or something. My vinyl copy of 2112 is still in mint condition.

I'll have to dig up this cut and give it a listen - glad you brought it up.

But as far as the best rock drumming ever, I'd have to throw Carl Palmer of ELP in there somewhere. He was jaw-dropping in concert. And, I'd nominate Bill Ward of Black Sabbath for an honorable mention just for his originality and what I always thought was perfect timing although talentwise I don't think he'd challenge the great ones.

And now that I've got some percussion expertise, can y'all help me settle a debate I've had with a friend for over 30 years? Listen to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog and tell me if you think the timing of the drumming is off or not. I say it is.

[Undertoad]

The part of Black Dog where you are talking about, Page confuses us by speeding up. He does this cool thing where he seems to blatantly ignore the time.

If you pick up on the beat and just count 1-2-3-4 through that passage, you'll find that the timing on drums remains steady throughout, and then Bonham crashes on 1 as Page comes back to the time just as he comes back to the key. It's a genius move.

It sometimes seems like Bonham is a little behind the beat which gives LZ songs a heavier, draggy groove.

If you have a singer as the fourth piece that is almost as hard. Which is why many acts like REM carry a second guitarist live.

[warch]

Zeppelin is to rock as Brubeck is to jazz.

[Ibby]

Palmer pwnz. End of story.

[JayMcGee]

There's a Shadows' track (Little B) where I swear the drummer (Brian Bennet) has at least 3 arms....

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The part of Black Dog where you are talking about, Page confuses us by speeding up. He does this cool thing where he seems to blatantly ignore the time.

If you pick up on the beat and just count 1-2-3-4 through that passage, you'll find that the timing on drums remains steady throughout, and then Bonham crashes on 1 as Page comes back to the time just as he comes back to the key. It's a genius move.

Awesome sauce. Years ago, I jammed with a guy who sang a Willie Nelson song I wasn't familiar with, in the literal style of Willie Nelson, which befuddled me to no end as where the lyrics lines start has a very loose relationship with the bar line.

It's one thing to be like Chicago, and have the whole band perform a ritard for dramatic effect, but to have one member go rogue and create that 'tension and release' is really spectacular.

The next level, for drummers, is to address the count micro-differently between your individual limbs. Not in the flashy sense of playing a solo where you vary the tempo on top of a consistent ostinato, but in the subtle sense of playing hi-hats on top of the beat, but dragging the bass brum micro-behind the beat. Guys like Steve Gadd can do that, while the rest of us just try to play one thing correctly, much less execute purposeful, perfect deviations.

[Undertoad]

It's lovely when a singer has that kind of control and understanding

All this time signature and lazy stuff puts me in mind of the delightfully weird Robyn Hitchcock and the Egyptians "Superman". Which is not at all about control but how to rock out in a weird way.

People should not listen to this song, as they won't like it, except for me. In this song, it's a 3/4 verse, into a 4/4 pre-chorus and chorus, and then the bass and drums just stay in 4/4 while Robyn's vocal and guitar go "lazy", dragging hard and return to a 3/4 verse which has almost nothing to do with the beat! (This happens at 1:30 for those who want to avoid the song)



After the verse, they go back to the 4/4 and rock it out and finish it, until the end - where the musical tag is, the drums stay on the 4/4 and the bass JOINS Robyn's guitar in the lazy 3/4.

It's very jarring and weird but that was (and is, I guess) entirely Mr. Hitchcock's thing.


Superman, superman, crunchy little superman
Found you in a Corn Flakes box
Nourished you in privacy
Touched the parts you couldn't reach
You improved immediately

She's a squeaking head on a pleasure box
And the boys don't understand
It took the Holy Roman Empire
Just to get you by my side
And I'm gonna be more careful with you
Aren't I?

Superman, superman, let her settle gradually
On the fire extinguisher
You provided thoughtfully
In the river on a punt
Underneath the willow tree

She's a squeaking head on a pleasure box
And the boys don't understand
It took the Holy Roman Empire
Just to keep you satisfied
And I'm gonna be more careful with you
Obviously

You'd better believe it
You'd better believe it
You'd better believe it
You'd better believe it

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

People should not listen to this song, as they won't like it...

When you're right, you're right.

I did follow and see what you mean, though. It's...weird. And interesting.