Sex Wars

[Griff]

I didn't want to hijack Catwomans Oprah thread so...

This whole idea of using jealousy to try to get a guy really seems misguided. Back in the day, if I was borderline interested in a girl, finding out she was sleeping with random guys would probably have removed her from the potential serious relationship group. In the States, young straight women are the fastest growing HIV/AIDS category, how much random sex are they having? Don't mind me I'm just a Catholic Dad of two girls and this stuff worries me.

[jaguar]

Well you know what they say about catholic schoolgirls.

The media loves hyping this stuff, I wouldn't worry that much.

[glatt]

Originally posted by Griff
if I was borderline interested in a girl, finding out she was sleeping with random guys would probably have removed her from the potential serious relationship group.

Hey, Griff, I agree with you.

[SteveDallas]

Oooo Griff, hope ya didn't read that NY Times Magazine article a couple weeks ago.

[jaguar]

Oooo Griff, hope ya didn't read that NY Times Magazine article a couple weeks ago.

I rest my case.

[breakingnews]

Originally posted by Griff
I didn't want to hijack Catwomans Oprah thread so...

This whole idea of using jealousy to try to get a guy really seems misguided. Back in the day, if I was borderline interested in a girl, finding out she was sleeping with random guys would probably have removed her from the potential serious relationship group. In the States, young straight women are the fastest growing HIV/AIDS category, how much random sex are they having? Don't mind me I'm just a Catholic Dad of two girls and this stuff worries me.

Girls don't need to sleep with other guys to make me jealous. All it takes is some gentle petting, and then no attention at all.

[99 44/100% pure]

Originally posted by jaguar
The media loves hyping this stuff, I wouldn't worry that much.

Yeah, but the Times' "Friends With Benefits" piece* was NOT hype, in that many teens and pre-teens across all demographic lines are engaging in this self-destructive behavior. In my middle to upper-middle class, mighty white census region, middle school students are engaging in non-intercourse sexual activity at record rates (appx. 36% of 8th grade boys and 25% of 8th grade girls). When and where is this most likely to happen? In Mom's bed, between 3:30 and 5:30 pm. !! I guess I won't be working full-time until June 2012, when my youngest is out of high school!


*Sorry, the Times article cannot be viewed for free, but here is a little commentary on the article in the Boston Globe. (If anyone has a better link to the actual text of the NYT piece, I'd appreciate it!)

[jaguar]

First of all, how can you believe those stats for sure, what are they based on? A survey of students? I remember doing one of those a few years ago during my final year, I know at least half the people in my group lied one way or another, when it comes to sex, a bunch of guys are even more likely to lie and play this stuff up.

My experience (and it's not out of date yet, I don't think there are many real difference between a middle class white schools in melbourne and a middle class white schools in the US) is that the girls were almost always the zombies, watched MTV, bought the latest trendy outfit, went to all the parties, whatever it took to fit in perfectly, if you're girls are capable of independant thought the chances are you've got nothing to worry about.

Teenagers are horny, it's not world-stopping. Yea, this stuff happens, I'm not denying that but most self respecting teenage girls aren't that interested in randomly giving head. Maybe there is a difference in US schools, I don't know but I still feel the article is overblown. The day I see an article reporting that teenagers ahve sex, some girls are sluts, some guys put a lot of pressure on girls and somehow the world goes on I'll be more inclinded to beleive it.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by jaguar
most self respecting teenage girls aren't that interested in randomly giving head.

How many girls in western society are self respecting? It's probably not as many as you think. Teenage girls are bombarded with images of what a woman "should" be, like Jessica Simpson, Brittany Spears, Mandy Moore, or Aaliyah, Brandy, etc.

All the trendy clothes are (IMO) slutty. If you want to wear trendy clothes (what teenage girl doesn't), you have to have a "body" to go in them, and that means you have to conform to the trendy look.

The trendy look came about because sex sells. Music sells. Music + sex sells alot. Watch BET or MTV (videos) for 30 minutes and try to count all the girls in slutty clothes, dirty dancing and shakin that thang.

The teenage boys want the teenage girls in the trendy clothes with the great bodies, because society is telling them that is what they want, and that it's ok to have sex.

Back in the 50's and 60's, kids were having sex, but the girls who were having sex were known as the trashy ones, and all the boys knew who were easy and who wouldn't put out.

Now MOST of the girls are having sex in high school, if not before, and if they aren't, they are ridiculed and pressured. ("What's wrong with you??")

The self respecting girls are generally smarter than the average bear, like actual music (as opposed to the garbage popular right now) and understand that the barbie stereotype isn't the real world. And no, the self respecting girls won't have random sex.

Moreover, the person (male or female) the respects themselves wont have random sex at any age.

[jaguar]

How many girls in western society are self respecting? It's probably not as many as you think.

I admit for this my friends and the circles I moved/move in my a godawful statistical sample and I agree with what you're saying but I feel that both Griff and 99 are smart cookies and probably have daughters with their heads screwed on.

As for self respect and random sex, I quote a great source of wisdom: 'There is a time and place for everything and that's college. '

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by 99 44/100% pure

engaging in non-intercourse sexual activity at record rates (appx. 36% of 8th grade boys and 25% of 8th grade girls). )

jaguar: First of all, how can you believe those stats for sure, what are they based on? A survey of students? I remember doing one of those a few years ago during my final year, I know at least half the people in my group lied one way or another, when it comes to sex, a bunch of guys are even more likely to lie and play this stuff up

remember the boy/girl sex question formula:

divide a man's answer by 2, multiply the girls answer by 2

18% of boys, 50% of girls?

mmmmmmm........lesbians:p :p :p :p

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
How many girls in western society are self respecting? It's probably not as many as you think. Teenage girls are bombarded with images of what a woman "should" be, like Jessica Simpson, Brittany Spears, Mandy Moore, or Aaliyah, Brandy, etc.

Ok here is where I feel I have to defend Aaliyah (R.I.P. baby girl). Actually, I'll defend Jessica, Mandy and Brandy too. Unlike Ms. Spears, those young ladies didn't turn on the "sexy" factor until they were just about "of age" (read old enough to start exploring the idea of being sexy). Brittany came out of the gate as a little miss "hottie" with her schoolgirl getup in her first video. And since she became so big at that point, that seemed to be where a lot of teen girls wanted to look "trendy", as you put it. Some of the clothes aren't that bad. Hell, I remember in the 70's there were plenty of young girls I knew that wore halter and tube tops. I would think *that* would be considered "racy" by some, even back then.

All the trendy clothes are (IMO) slutty. If you want to wear trendy clothes (what teenage girl doesn't), you have to have a "body" to go in them, and that means you have to conform to the trendy look.

As someone who would have never conform to the trendy look (back in my HS days, the 80s), I *have* noticed that the body type isn't as "perfect" as it once was. I see now that having a "fatty" and being a bit on the thick side isn't looked down on anymore. I mean, I know that girls will still go on diets and try to be stick skinny, but it doesn't seem to be *as* dire anymore (plus why diet when you can ask mummy and daddy for money for plastic surgery..but that's a WHOLE 'nuther thread!).

The trendy look came about because sex sells. Music sells. Music + sex sells alot. Watch BET or MTV (videos) for 30 minutes and try to count all the girls in slutty clothes, dirty dancing and shakin that thang.

True, but the thing one must remember is that those women are GROWN, adult women, and are able to wear whatever they choose. Young ladies (girls) certainly should not be wearing such clothing, and it's up to parents to make sure that their child is not leaving the house with less than what is acceptable. Now, what they do after they leave the house is the individual's responsibility.

The teenage boys want the teenage girls in the trendy clothes with the great bodies, because society is telling them that is what they want, and that it's ok to have sex.

Not necessarily. It's been my experience that some boys will go after the girls who are no so trendy and great bodies. I had my fair share of offers, I just said no to random sex because that wasn't what I was into.

Back in the 50's and 60's, kids were having sex, but the girls who were having sex were known as the trashy ones, and all the boys knew who were easy and who wouldn't put out.

True as that may be, remember: some guys love a challenge, so not putting out didn't guarantee no offers (or at least, the opportunity to try to get the girl to put out).

Now MOST of the girls are having sex in high school, if not before, and if they aren't, they are ridiculed and pressured. ("What's wrong with you??")

*from the NYTimes article*
"Among them is Caity, a thin, 14-year-old freshman with long blond hair and braces, who says that she is a virgin but that she occasionally ''hooks up'' with guys. Caity doesn't make clear what she means by ''hooking up.'' The term itself is vague -- covering everything from kissing to intercourse -- though it is sometimes a euphemism for oral sex, performed by a girl on a boy. Sitting next to Caity is her best friend, Kate, also 14, whom everyone affectionately refers to as the ''prude'' of the group. Outgoing and attractive, she's had a boyfriend for a couple of months, but they haven't even kissed yet.

In her New England exurban world, where, I was told, oral sex is common by eighth or ninth grade, and where hookups may skip kissing altogether, Kate's predicament strikes her friends, and even herself, as bizarre. ''It's retarded,'' she says, burying her head in Caity's shoulder. ''Even my mom thinks it's weird.'' "
http://tinyurl.com/2xtmm

Weird? weird???? Even the mother says it's "weird"??? Good grief!! Well, that says it all, dudnit?

[jaguar]

I can't picture that conversation..
'hello honey, how was school'
'not too bad, stacy was pulling a train behind the classrooms again'
'that's wierd'

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
I don't think there are many real difference between a middle class white schools in melbourne and a middle class white schools in the US

The main difference, I suspect, is sex education.

Plus, you knuckleheads talk funny.

[Catwoman]

Jealousy is one of nature's cruelest tools. For the jealousee, it causes no end of (often irrational) pain, insecurity and heartache. However it's fundamental evolutionary purpose - to prevent your female mate from being impregnated by another male or your male mate impregnating loads of other slu.. females - is probably still well ingrained in our biological make-up.

Women (and men) are well aware of it's power. I have been guilty of it many a time, there's this guy I live with... (oh, have I told you that one? )

I don't, however, remember doing this at school. I don't think girls are sexually aware enough (despite the suggestion that they are through make-up, short skirts etc.) to understand the true power of their sexuality and the impact of jealousy. Of course I only speak from personal experience, and it's quite possible that I've erased all memory of...
Nevertheless, although women can be a conniving, manipulative bunch (if benevolently), I don't think you need worry too much about your daughters. Teenagers talk about having sex a lot more than they actually do, and yes they would lie in a survey (just in case somebody reads it). So have faith in their judgement, relax, and they'll respect you for it.