Ah, democracy

Griff · 06-11-2005, 06:39 AM

"Anyone who incites violence, other than those elected, will have to face the law."-Ethiopia's Information Minister Bereket Simon

"The will, or the pretended will, of the majority, is the last lurking place of tyranny at the present day." -Lysander Spooner

Nice little piece on democracy by Justin for our Democratic and Republican friends to reflect on while the fight over whose brand of hell to institute.

Undertoad · 06-11-2005, 07:16 AM

Yet another

from Raimondo, is what.

Consent of the governed is a big blind spot here. And it doesn't (can't) mean unanimous consent either.

Griff · 06-11-2005, 07:44 AM

Okay. Explain the consent of the governed bit.

richlevy · 06-11-2005, 08:37 AM

I'm going to come up with a new bumper sticker.

It's a Republic, stupid.

We don't govern. We try to find honorable men and women who try to give us what they think they want if it's not too stupid. The House is more directly tied to the people, and tends to come up with more silly ideas. The Senate is supposed to be calmer and more deliberative and only let the good ideas pass.

Lately, the Senate has been falling down on the job. When one party controls the White House and both houses, and a party's political leader is the President, there is way too much rubber-stamping and not enough independent thought.

Undertoad · 06-11-2005, 09:24 AM

Instead of trying to unwrap 90% rhetoric, let's take it a different direction.

- Private property is the centerpiece of libertarian individual rights.

- Land is the centerpiece of private property. You can always declare as private what you can carry, and what you can't carry can always be stolen. If you can declare land private, and subject to enforced rules of trespass, you can find just about every other right.

- Where the government is unstable or missing, we notice that there is little to no private land bought and/or sold, and/or the value of such property is miniscule, because the government does not enforce a rule of law. For example, it makes it impossible for a system of deeds to exist or makes the deeds irrelevant.

- We notice that even in a somewhat "free" society, lack of functioning government makes the society useless and property subject to rule of whomever has a bigger gun. (Albania.)

So. Somebody has to wield the official gun of society, to make sure that the basic private property rules are part of the rule of law.

Tricky. In some parts of the world, the person with the biggest gun gets to be in charge. It turns out that this approach gets one a pretty crappy result, with very little private property, but Raimondo seems to believe that's not the case. I mean, it turns out that guys like Raimondo would be purged in the old USSR, but in his world ballot access laws make the US's form of government just as illegitimate. I would rather have Ralph Nader not make the ballot in 15 states, than have 30 million people purged, but for Raimondo the distinction is hard to see.

Is Lebanon's government better off if they democratically elect Hezbollah? To me, under such circumstances, it really depends on the *next* election. If the government has to answer to the people then it will see the effects of not being a part of the world community. It'll either moderate or face the alternatives. This seems to lead to moderation. Does it matter to "anti-war" Raimondo that no two Democracies have ever gone to war?

06-11-2005, 06:39 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Ah, democracy "Anyone who incites violence, other than those elected, will have to face the law."-Ethiopia's Information Minister Bereket Simon "The will, or the pretended will, of the majority, is the last lurking place of tyranny at the present day." -Lysander Spooner Nice little piece on democracy by Justin for our Democratic and Republican friends to reflect on while the fight over whose brand of hell to institute. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-11-2005, 07:44 AM	#3
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Okay. Explain the consent of the governed bit. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-11-2005, 08:37 AM	#4
richlevy King Of Wishful Thinking Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia Suburbs Posts: 6,669	I'm going to come up with a new bumper sticker. It's a Republic, stupid. We don't govern. We try to find honorable men and women who try to give us what they think they want if it's not too stupid. The House is more directly tied to the people, and tends to come up with more silly ideas. The Senate is supposed to be calmer and more deliberative and only let the good ideas pass. Lately, the Senate has been falling down on the job. When one party controls the White House and both houses, and a party's political leader is the President, there is way too much rubber-stamping and not enough independent thought. __________________ Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE! I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama

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06-11-2005, 07:16 AM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yet another from Raimondo, is what. Consent of the governed is a big blind spot here. And it doesn't (can't) mean unanimous consent either.

06-11-2005, 09:24 AM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Instead of trying to unwrap 90% rhetoric, let's take it a different direction. - Private property is the centerpiece of libertarian individual rights. - Land is the centerpiece of private property. You can always declare as private what you can carry, and what you can't carry can always be stolen. If you can declare land private, and subject to enforced rules of trespass, you can find just about every other right. - Where the government is unstable or missing, we notice that there is little to no private land bought and/or sold, and/or the value of such property is miniscule, because the government does not enforce a rule of law. For example, it makes it impossible for a system of deeds to exist or makes the deeds irrelevant. - We notice that even in a somewhat "free" society, lack of functioning government makes the society useless and property subject to rule of whomever has a bigger gun. (Albania.) So. Somebody has to wield the official gun of society, to make sure that the basic private property rules are part of the rule of law. Tricky. In some parts of the world, the person with the biggest gun gets to be in charge. It turns out that this approach gets one a pretty crappy result, with very little private property, but Raimondo seems to believe that's not the case. I mean, it turns out that guys like Raimondo would be purged in the old USSR, but in his world ballot access laws make the US's form of government just as illegitimate. I would rather have Ralph Nader not make the ballot in 15 states, than have 30 million people purged, but for Raimondo the distinction is hard to see. Is Lebanon's government better off if they democratically elect Hezbollah? To me, under such circumstances, it really depends on the next election. If the government has to answer to the people then it will see the effects of not being a part of the world community. It'll either moderate or face the alternatives. This seems to lead to moderation. Does it matter to "anti-war" Raimondo that no two Democracies have ever gone to war?

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