Democratic Palestine

Griff · 01-28-2006, 07:04 PM

Ramallah, West Bank (Reuters) - Firing into the air, Fatah gunmen and police stormed Palestinian parliament buildings on Saturday in growing unrest after their long-dominant party's crushing election defeat by Hamas Islamists.

Ahhhhh.... Bushies democratic mid-east is going gangbusters.

Aliantha · 01-28-2006, 07:31 PM

As my b/f is fond of saying, democracy doesn't work! Of course, this is half in jest, but there is some truth to the statement.

I find the events in Palestine quite frightening and I'm sure there's someone browsing around this site who could talk about the issues with regard to Israel far better than I. Such events are lending his views on 'the rapture' far more credence than I previously gave credit to.

If ever there were a time when I felt that it would be prudent for outsiders to intervene it's now. Unfortunately, I doubt this will occur.

Griff · 01-28-2006, 08:16 PM

With the present political crowd here in the States, we have to worry about self-fullfilling prophecies.

Aliantha · 01-28-2006, 08:24 PM

Isn't a prophecy, by definition, self fulfilling?

Griff · 01-29-2006, 07:52 AM

Nope, people (Nostrodomus) predict(ed) stuff every day that does not come to pass. Bush, while not actually having the power to bring on a rapture, could blow enough folks out of their sandals that it'll look like the end of time.

jaguar · 01-29-2006, 08:47 AM

notice how they're firing into the air instead of into other people? This is about as peaceful as it gets, if anything, its' a sign that they are accepting that they've lost power. It's as much a protest against fatah's crappy corrupt leaders as against hamas winning.

The fact that hamas is talking about turning it's armed wing into a national military incredibly positive news. Hamas have the discipline and power to bring peace and an end to corruption in the west bank and Gaza. That would pave the way for a viable state. Leaving Abbas in charge also means that it will be easier for Israel and the west stomach working with a Hamas-controlled PA. Hamas have held their ceasefire and have made all the right noises about running the PA, they deserve a chance and the respect of the international community, anything less is to reject democracy and prolong the conflict.

Griff · 01-29-2006, 08:54 AM

GAZA, Jan. 28 — Gunmen and police officers affiliated with the defeated Fatah movement staged angry protests on Saturday, firing rifles into the air outside the Palestinian presidential compound in Ramallah and marching on the parliament buildings in Gaza and the West Bank.

Yep, I was wondering why the story disappeared.

richlevy · 01-29-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

notice how they're firing into the air instead of into other people? This is about as peaceful as it gets, if anything, its' a sign that they are accepting that they've lost power. It's as much a protest against fatah's crappy corrupt leaders as against hamas winning.

The fact that hamas is talking about turning it's armed wing into a national military incredibly positive news. Hamas have the discipline and power to bring peace and an end to corruption in the west bank and Gaza. That would pave the way for a viable state. Leaving Abbas in charge also means that it will be easier for Israel and the west stomach working with a Hamas-controlled PA. Hamas have held their ceasefire and have made all the right noises about running the PA, they deserve a chance and the respect of the international community, anything less is to reject democracy and prolong the conflict.

Except that the US would be forced to recognize what we have listed as a terrorist organization is a legitimate party. Even the IRA gave itself a different name for it's political activities. This injects a shade of gray into the black and white thinking that has been the current US public policy on the war on terror. In the old days, someone might have sent in agents to destabilize a regime which we did not approve of, democratically elected or not. We probably still don't have that capability in the Middle East, so the US will have to craft a sensible policy that doesn't involve strong arming or invading an antagonistic if not openly hostile government. Good luck with that.

Of course, maybe we could parachute Karl Rove in and hope that he can help Fatah win the next election. Karl has had experience leading ethically challenged parties to national dominance before. It probably says so on his resume.

jaguar · 01-29-2006, 10:20 AM

Hamas is to the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades as Shin Fein is to the IRA, it's just that the media thinks such distinctions are beyond the majority. Fatah lacks the power to control the occupied territories, Hamas can and thus pave the way to a two-state solution. I'd love to hear why that's a bad thing.

Undertoad · 01-29-2006, 10:51 AM

Read somewhere that the Hamas slogan was "Israel says no. America says no."

They will have to be pretty productive to make up for the donations to the PA they stand to lose if they remain a terrorist organization. 60% of PA funding comes from foreign aid (via Belmont Club):

US $368 million
EU $338 million
Arab League $197
Britain $43 million
Italy $40 million
Sweden $32 million
Germany $27 million
Spain $17 million

xoxoxoBruce · 01-29-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Experts say Fatah padded its payroll with young militants to win their votes ahead of the polls, and expect the PA will be unable to pay all their salaries after the elections.

Perfect, lay off all those AK-47s and say it's because the US cut off funding.

Urbane Guerrilla · 01-31-2006, 10:53 AM

Definitely interesting... I'll keep watching. I'd expect US financial aid to vanish for a couple of years at least.

Elspode · 01-31-2006, 12:46 PM

I fear that Bush and Company's concept of "Democratic Government" means something akin to "Freely Elected Government Which Agrees With US Policies".

If the will of the people is to kick Israel's ass, then a freely elected government doesn't exactly solve the problem as the US sees it, does it?

mrnoodle · 01-31-2006, 03:02 PM

What does Bush have to do with Palestine's elections? Wasn't it Clinton standing behind Arafat and whatshisname when they shook hands a few years back?

Not his fault either, though.

I say let them deal with their own politics. If it ever comes to a real shooting match with Israel, Palestine will cease to exist. Of course, we'll be in the awkward position of keeping the rest of the Arab world off Israel's back, but Palestine itself isn't that big of a worry right now.

Democracy isn't always pretty, but it's still the best option.

Elspode · 01-31-2006, 03:30 PM

Bush doesn't have anything to do with Palestine's elections...I'm just pointing out that our government can't be happy with a free and open election that results in a radical faction taking over the government.

The usual response to such an event would be to cry foul, except that this election was monitored by independent observers who declared it legit.

01-28-2006, 07:04 PM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Democratic Palestine Ramallah, West Bank (Reuters) - Firing into the air, Fatah gunmen and police stormed Palestinian parliament buildings on Saturday in growing unrest after their long-dominant party's crushing election defeat by Hamas Islamists. Ahhhhh.... Bushies democratic mid-east is going gangbusters. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-28-2006, 08:16 PM	#3
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	With the present political crowd here in the States, we have to worry about self-fullfilling prophecies. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-29-2006, 07:52 AM	#5
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Nope, people (Nostrodomus) predict(ed) stuff every day that does not come to pass. Bush, while not actually having the power to bring on a rapture, could blow enough folks out of their sandals that it'll look like the end of time. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-29-2006, 08:47 AM	#6
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	notice how they're firing into the air instead of into other people? This is about as peaceful as it gets, if anything, its' a sign that they are accepting that they've lost power. It's as much a protest against fatah's crappy corrupt leaders as against hamas winning. The fact that hamas is talking about turning it's armed wing into a national military incredibly positive news. Hamas have the discipline and power to bring peace and an end to corruption in the west bank and Gaza. That would pave the way for a viable state. Leaving Abbas in charge also means that it will be easier for Israel and the west stomach working with a Hamas-controlled PA. Hamas have held their ceasefire and have made all the right noises about running the PA, they deserve a chance and the respect of the international community, anything less is to reject democracy and prolong the conflict. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

01-29-2006, 08:54 AM	#7
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	GAZA, Jan. 28 — Gunmen and police officers affiliated with the defeated Fatah movement staged angry protests on Saturday, firing rifles into the air outside the Palestinian presidential compound in Ramallah and marching on the parliament buildings in Gaza and the West Bank. Yep, I was wondering why the story disappeared. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

01-28-2006, 07:31 PM	#2
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	As my b/f is fond of saying, democracy doesn't work! Of course, this is half in jest, but there is some truth to the statement. I find the events in Palestine quite frightening and I'm sure there's someone browsing around this site who could talk about the issues with regard to Israel far better than I. Such events are lending his views on 'the rapture' far more credence than I previously gave credit to. If ever there were a time when I felt that it would be prudent for outsiders to intervene it's now. Unfortunately, I doubt this will occur.

01-28-2006, 08:24 PM	#4
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Isn't a prophecy, by definition, self fulfilling?

01-29-2006, 10:20 AM	#9
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Hamas is to the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades as Shin Fein is to the IRA, it's just that the media thinks such distinctions are beyond the majority. Fatah lacks the power to control the occupied territories, Hamas can and thus pave the way to a two-state solution. I'd love to hear why that's a bad thing. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

01-29-2006, 10:51 AM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Read somewhere that the Hamas slogan was "Israel says no. America says no." They will have to be pretty productive to make up for the donations to the PA they stand to lose if they remain a terrorist organization. 60% of PA funding comes from foreign aid (via Belmont Club): US $368 million EU $338 million Arab League $197 Britain $43 million Italy $40 million Sweden $32 million Germany $27 million Spain $17 million

01-31-2006, 10:53 AM	#12
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Definitely interesting... I'll keep watching. I'd expect US financial aid to vanish for a couple of years at least. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

01-31-2006, 12:46 PM	#13
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I fear that Bush and Company's concept of "Democratic Government" means something akin to "Freely Elected Government Which Agrees With US Policies". If the will of the people is to kick Israel's ass, then a freely elected government doesn't exactly solve the problem as the US sees it, does it? __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

01-31-2006, 03:02 PM	#14
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	What does Bush have to do with Palestine's elections? Wasn't it Clinton standing behind Arafat and whatshisname when they shook hands a few years back? Not his fault either, though. I say let them deal with their own politics. If it ever comes to a real shooting match with Israel, Palestine will cease to exist. Of course, we'll be in the awkward position of keeping the rest of the Arab world off Israel's back, but Palestine itself isn't that big of a worry right now. Democracy isn't always pretty, but it's still the best option. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

01-31-2006, 03:30 PM	#15
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Bush doesn't have anything to do with Palestine's elections...I'm just pointing out that our government can't be happy with a free and open election that results in a radical faction taking over the government. The usual response to such an event would be to cry foul, except that this election was monitored by independent observers who declared it legit. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

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