Dutch Ban Burkas

[xoxoxoBruce]

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds.

Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk will now draw up legislation which will result in the Netherlands, once one of Europe's most easy-going nations, imposing some of the continent's toughest laws against concealing the face.

"The cabinet finds it undesirable that garments covering the face -- including the burqa -- should be worn in public in view of public order, (and) the security and protection of fellow citizens," the Dutch Justice Ministry said in a statement.

Last December Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a proposal by far-right politician Geert Wilders to outlaw face-coverings and asked Verdonk to examine the feasibility of such a ban.

Because veils were worn for religious reasons, she had feared new legislation could come into conflict with religious freedom laws. But she said on Friday this was not the case.

Existing legislation already limits the wearing of burqas and other total coverings on public transport or in schools.

France has banned the Muslim headscarf and other religious garb from state schools while discussion in Britain centers on limiting the full facial veil, or niqab.

Italy has a decades-old law against covering the face in public as an anti-terrorism measure. Some politicians have called for this rule to be enforced against veiled Muslim women.

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The article goes on to say it really won't affect many Muslim women, maybe only 50 in the whole country, actually wear the whole kit. Therefore it would appear to me, they are making a statement that the Dutch won't allow their country to be taken over by immigrants, changing the mores and customs.

Am I getting the wrong message? If so, what do you think the message is?

[WabUfvot5]

No, the Dutch have taken that stance. They are probably learning by watching what is happening in Sweden (which is a thread I've been meaning to post). I believe it is the Dutch who make all immigrants purches a $75 video they are tested on that depicts men kissing and all other sorts of stuff that they may encounter in the Netherlands. Of course if your religion forbids such things how are you going to watch the tape? I see nothing wrong with it as it keeps out people who would not intergrate into their society. This seems to be another step in making immigrants integrate and keeping extremists out.

[Hippikos]

If so, what do you think the message is?

The message is: national elections next week...

From the 16 Mio inhabitants 3 Mio has no Dutch background, of which 1 Mio has a Western background from EU or US), 2 Mio non Western background, of which almost half originate from the former colonies.

Immigrants taking over?

PS: I´ve never seen any burka until now. Such a fuz over 50 women which most likely only stay at home anywayz.

[DanaC]

*Sighs* great. Here we go. We in the West are becoming so intolerant of Moslem culture.

The whole veil/burka debate bemuses me. I understand that it seems a strange and unnatural thing to us, but there are cultures who view our insistence on covering our breasts as equally strange.

For the women raised in this particularly strict form of Islamic culture, covering up is a matter of personal modesty. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to walk down my high street with my breasts exposed, I would almost certainly be arrested, would be considered to be inviting male attention/sexual assault and would more than likely feel naked to the world. Why? there is nothing inherently sexual about breasts; plenty of societies do not share our view on this. Yet, because we have evolved a culture where breasts are considered to be sexual in nature, women are expected (and indeed governed by law) to cover up. If as a teenager, I had decided to wear jeans and nothing else, I have, no doubt my father would have hit the roof, likewise my older brother.....and not just because of the risk of arrest.

For the women in cultures that have evolved to percieve the showing of body and face as immodest, to walk down the high street without covering up must make them feel semi-naked. Just as I would feel uncomfortable having mens' eyes roving over my breasts then so must they feel uncomfortable having those same eyes 'rove' over their face.

We have become so intolerant of this culture, that we no longer see the parrallels of our own. We see the burka and the veil in terms of male oppression and yet we live in a world where many people, male and female, are uncomfortable seeing a woman breast feed.

[wolf]

Muslims are intolerant of other religions and cultures and for some reason you think they should get more favorable treatment than they would give, for example, a Westerner in a Muslim country? Oh, wait. My bad. European (white) culture bad, any brown culture good. I forgot my New World Order cheat sheet.

[DanaC]

Oh, wait. My bad. European (white) culture bad, any brown culture good.

That's not the least bit racist.

[DanaC]

Muslims are intolerant of other religions and cultures and for some reason you think they should get more favorable treatment than they would give, for example, a Westerner in a Muslim country?

This isn't about westerners in Muslim countries. This about muslims in a western country. We supposedly pride ourselves on tolerance. Are you suggesting that because some muslim (some, not all)countries are intolerant, we should extend that courtesy to any muslim in our country? Why don't we just go the whole hog and make them all wear a red crescent?

[wolf]

Dana, you're not getting it. I belive in a truly level playing field. I am not ashamed of my culture and heritage, and don't think that any other person should be. There are certain things that I hold dear, including the freedom to worship (or not) as one chooses. Once a religion decides that it has a license to convert forcibly or kill from it's version of God, it's bad.

"Why is there this malice? Because there are none who love the Jews on the face of the earth: not man, not rock, and not tree, everything hates them. They destroy everything, they destroy the trees and destroy the houses. Everything wants vengeance on the Jews, on these pigs on the face of the earth, and the day of our victory, Allah willing, will come."

Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris

"All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, Allah's enemies, the cursed nation in the Koran, whom Allah describes as monkeys and pigs [The] Koran says clearly that the worst enemies of the Moslem Nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them..."

Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi

"Allah said against the Jews and the Idolaters, 'Your Lord has declared that he will surely send against them [Jews] until Resurrection, those [Arabs and Muslims] who will afflict them with terrible torment'"

Dr. Mahmoud Mustafa Najem

"The Jews are the Jews. Whether Labor or Likud the Jews are Jews. They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They must be butchered and must be killed... The Jews are like a spring as long as you step on it with your foot it doesn't move. But if you lift your foot from the spring, it hurts you and punishes you."

Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiyah, Sharia (Islamic Law) Rulings Council, Rector of Advanced Studies, Islamic University

Help me out here. What part of the above am I misreading or misinterpreting?

"It is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you meet them, kill them."

[DanaC]

Those are some interpretations of Islam. They may even be the predominant interpretations held by leading moslem clerics. That does not mean they are shared by all moslems. In America, you will find many intolerant Christian preachers who condemn people for being homosexual and you will still find some who are anti-semitic. Does that mean we should judge all Christians this way?

Even if all moslems shared that viewpoint, in what way is that relevant to us being intolerant of them? I am intolerant of anti-semitism. I disagree with and detest the anti-semitic views of those clerics, just as I am intolerant of and detest the homophobic, misogynistic and occassionally anti-semitic views of certain Christian leaders. In what way does that make it right for me to be intolerant of other aspects of their culture or views? In what way does it balance the books that their women not be allowed to dress in the way that makes them feel comfortable?

[9th Engineer]

They can absolutely expect to recieve the same level of tolerence they extend in their own contries. If you insult my friend in your house you sure as hell arn't invited into mine.

[WabUfvot5]

So the Dutch are trying to keep extremists out and make sure immigrants (who do not have to be accepted into the country) integrate into society. What exactly is wrong with that?

[wolf]

The Dutch have good reason to worry.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by wolf

The Dutch have good reason to worry.

Van Gogh was an agent provocateur of the highest order, insulting everything and everybody. His murder have been used by the advocates of fear to inflate the real situation. I don´t see why we have to worry as the change of being killed by a terrorist is less than being hit by lightening. The reign of fear executed by the Bushites is deeply rooted inside many people.

All this fuz for 50 people wearing burkas completely escapes my me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You're blaming us for the trouble with immigrants going on in Germany, France, England, Spain, etc?
You're right about the odds of a terrorist coming to get you, but the problem of immigrants not assimilating is ongoing. It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.

The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get.

[DanaC]

It's not a statement to immigrants.....it's a statement to moslems.