Iraq and Turkey See Tensions Rise After Ambush

Iraq and Turkey See Tensions Rise After Ambush

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/wo..._r=1&th&emc=th

ISTANBUL, Oct. 21 — A brazen ambush by Kurdish militants that left at least 12 Turkish soldiers dead touched off a major escalation in Turkey-Iraq tensions on Sunday, bringing fears that Turkey would retaliate immediately by sending troops across the border into Iraq. But Turkey’s prime minister said he delayed a decision, after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice personally intervened.

Turkish troops were attacked by rebels near Daglica.
The ambush by a large group of Kurdish militants about three miles from the border with Iraq early on Sunday was seen as a direct provocation on the part of the militants, who have increasingly staged raids into Turkey from hide-outs in the mountains of northern Iraq.

Such action by Turkey, a NATO ally, would be extremely embarrassing for the United States, which has military control over the territory that the Turks are threatening to invade. Moreover, a Turkish advance into northern Iraq would instantly bring fresh troubles to a country where the United States is preoccupied with the war. And it would complicate stability in the broader region, which is generally antagonistic to American policy. Iran made remarks criticizing American policy on Sunday. Syria did the same four days before.

Mr. Erdogan used diplomatic language to say that a final decision about retaliation had not yet been made. He said Turkey would wait until all “military requirements” had been met. “The government will use this authority when the military requirements exist,” he said. “When requirements do not exist, such a step cannot be taken on emotional ground, because some people request or wish for it.”

He said he expected the United States to take “swift steps” against the militants.

Turkey has worked hard to avoid military action, said a Western official, because it knows that an offensive would damage relations with the United States as well as Turkey’s bid to join the European Union, a goal Mr. Erdogan’s government has aggressively pressed.

“I think we’ve passed the threshold,” Mr. Kiniklioglu said. “It looks like for two days or three days there will be a holding off and a waiting period. Unless the U.S. comes up with something magic in the next few days, which is highly unlikely, we’ll probably go in.”

“Possible repercussion of such an operation on our relations with the U.S., or the European Union, or economy are now of secondary importance behind our national security and well-being," Mr. Kuloglu said.

The longer we stay the deeper in the mire we get intrenched... it has been past time to leave since they voted for their own government.
It is not our fault they voted for Iranian backed warlords. That is who they wanted, let them have them.
It is not worth one more US life for one more day.

[richlevy]

Turkey is our ally in the war on terror. So are the Kurds in Iraq. Turkey also maintains a large portion of our supply lines. We have an obligation to side with both of them in a conflict.

It appears Cheney was right 10 years ago when he thought the occupation in Iraq was a stupid idea. This is a pure clusterfuck and Bush's place in history has been secured. All hail the conquering idiot.

We also offended them recently by finally acknowledging the Armenian genocide.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

We also offended them recently by finally acknowledging the Armenian genocide.

We do not blame the Germans for the holocaust. We blame the Nazis. Do we blame the Turks for the Armenian genocide? Or do we blame it on a dying Ottoman Empire. Especially important here is that Ataturk had nothing to do with that Armenian genocide. But who gets blamed? Ottomans or Turks?

Turks also acknowledge the Armenian deaths. However it is not defined as genocide. It is defined as victims of war. Ottoman Empire citizens who sided with the French and Russians and who therefore got their just due.

I blame Turkey for not acknowledging that it happened at all. Not calling it an attempted genocide is not calling it what it was.
It is not about who's fault it is at this point, just about stating that it happened at all as it was.

[ZenGum]

I'm wondering what the hell the PKK are hoping to achieve. Suppose they provoke Turkey into invading Northern Iraq ... This would greatly weaken Kurdish military strength which will be sorely needed if Iraq does descend into all out civil war. It would alienate American support, which they also need. It would provide a pretext for continued occupation of Kurdistan by the four local nations.
Do they really think they can win a fight if a big one erupts? I favour independence for Kurdistan, but I don't see what their strategy is. Any guesses?

[deadbeater]

The PKK are generating chaos in the hope that the results would be a greater Kurdistan, encompassing parts of currently three countries.

US ain't going after the PKK hard, because, they would be the main troops vs Iran.

[xoxoxoBruce]

An interesting letter from a Turkish citizen about the Armenian "genocide".

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

This would greatly weaken Kurdish military strength which will be sorely needed if Iraq does descend into all out civil war.

What do you mean by 'sorely needed?' Do you think the Kurdish militias and political groups will do anything but withdraw into themselves and defend their own borders? They'll do what they've done since they got what autonomy they have: mind their business. If there is a civil war (which I really doubt, I don't think the US will be pulling out any time soon), the only stable area will be pseudo-Kurdistan, but they wont do anything for anyone else's stability.

On a different note, I don't think we should be dealing so favorably with Turkey. They're just as bad toward the Kurds as the Israelis are to the Palestinians (except the Kurds are better at fighting back and the Turks can't bring as much force to bear).

This 'allies in the war on terror' thing is crap for two reasons: One, the 'war on terror' is another name for 'excuse to do whatever we want.' Two: what have the Turks done to help us in this 'war on terror?' If you hold that Iraq was about terrorism (which I don't), why didn't they let us fly from their soil like in the 90s? Where was the Turkish troop aid? They certainly chipped in a lot of money, I know.

Newsflash: PUK and PKK are not terrorist organizations, they're militias. How does Turkey rattling a sabre at Northern Iraq compare to 'fighting terrorism?' It don't neither.

but I don't see what their strategy is. Any guesses?

Being butthurt.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by queequeger

What do you mean by 'sorely needed?' Do you think the Kurdish militias and political groups will do anything but withdraw into themselves and defend their own borders? They'll do what they've done since they got what autonomy they have: mind their business. If there is a civil war (which I really doubt, I don't think the US will be pulling out any time soon), the only stable area will be pseudo-Kurdistan, but they wont do anything for anyone else's stability.

That is what I meant: sorely needed to defend their borders. They have plenty of oil, and the other groups, and neighbouring countries, might well try to seize some oilfields amongst the chaos if all-out civil war does get going. And I agree that while the US and friends are there, they will keep a lid on things enough to prevent complete Balkan-style or Rwandan-style war. But the US isn't going to stay forever. Consider Vietnam - things were relatively stable in 73 for the pullout ... but by 75 ... that is what I would anticipate in Iraq. A period of stability, a pullout, a brief pause, a few mosque bombings, then whoooommmm!

Originally Posted by queequeger

On a different note, I don't think we should be dealing so favorably with Turkey. They're just as bad toward the Kurds as the Israelis are to the Palestinians (except the Kurds are better at fighting back and the Turks can't bring as much force to bear).

I agree. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter ... in most cases. Some are just psychos. But the Kurds do seem to me to have a legitimate claim for nationhood being repressed by various powers.

Originally Posted by queequeger

This 'allies in the war on terror' thing is crap for two reasons: One, the 'war on terror' is another name for 'excuse to do whatever we want.' Two: what have the Turks done to help us in this 'war on terror?' If you hold that Iraq was about terrorism (which I don't), why didn't they let us fly from their soil like in the 90s? Where was the Turkish troop aid? They certainly chipped in a lot of money, I know.

One: yeah it has become that way hasn't it. A while back I asked folks what it would take for the US to "be over" the September 11 attacks, but got very little response. It made me wonder, though. Catching Osama would make a lot of people (especially outside the US) feel that the job was done and the war was over. So I started wondering if the US had deliberately taken the pressure off catching Osama for this very reason - as long as he's loose, they have a license to invade anywhere, but if they get him, in a lot of people's minds, that license expires. mmmmmmmaybe. Conspiracy theories are sooooo tempting, we must guard against their seductiveness.

Regarding Deadbeater's suggestion, that the PKK are trying to spark a region-wide war in the hopes that a Kurdish nation will emerge from the rubble... possibly, but that's one hell high risk strategy. If it were up to me, I'd be concentrating on consolidating Kurdistan-in-Iraq, surviving any troubles in Iraq, and waiting for future opportunities to "liberate" the rest of Kurdistan from Turkey, Iran and Syria.

[queequeger]

For the record, I think that outlandish conspiracy theories involving illuminati and such are fun and all, but some 'conspiracy theories' could very well be the truth. Watergate, CIA 'family jewels...' these things would have easily been dismissed as 'crackpot conspiracy theories' if there weren't definitive evidence there.

I don't dismiss the possibility that there are some dirty minded, handsy people involved that are using 'the war on terror' to get some things done they've wanted to do for a while.

A. 'The man' caused/ignored 9/11 on purpose... pretty outlandish.
B. 'The man' used 9/11 to muster support for things that otherwise would have less... sounds more likely.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Being butthurt.

I dunno, the kurds don't really whine so much as lay waste to their enemies. Some of those kurdish militias are some real hard-cases, and would give even the all-mighty US military a serious run for their money. They're certainly far more competent than the IQ security forces.

[Ibby]

shit.

nothing on american news yet but according to this russian news source....

ANKARA, October 24 (RIA Novosti) - Units of the Turkish army have crossed the Iraqi border in a special operation against Kurdish militants, local newspapers said Wednesday.

The Yeni Safak newspaper reported that Turkish commandos supported by helicopters were chasing militants from the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), and F-16 Falcon fighter-bombers and artillery were delivering pinpoint strikes at militant bases about 50 kilometers (30 miles) deep into the Iraqi territory.

Zaman, Turkey's third largest newspaper, said the Turkish Armed Forces had stepped up their bombardment of the Iraqi border as part of an operation launched in retaliation for Sunday's terrorist attack that killed 12 soldiers and wounded 16 others.

The newspaper cited a government spokesman as saying that the U.S. had been informed about the start of the cross-border operation, although Turkey's military has not confirmed the media reports.

The Turkish parliament sanctioned last week military cross-border operations against the PKK, based in north Iraq, following an earlier government request. The PKK says it is currently holding several Turkish soldiers hostage.

Turkey's military said on Monday that eight military personnel were missing following clashes with Kurdish fighters on the Iraqi border, 34 Kurds and at least 12 Turkish servicemen were killed last Sunday in an ambush by Kurdish militants.

Turkey's National Security Council is meeting Wednesday to discuss further action against the PKK insurgents and the reaction of the U.S. and neighboring countries on the Turkish incursion into northern Iraq.

The PKK, listed by the U.S., NATO and the EU as a terrorist organization, has been fighting for autonomy status in southeast Turkey for nearly 25 years. The conflict has so far claimed about 40,000 lives.

this is not good.

[ZenGum]

Re: Ibram's news story
Eeeep! IF it is true. Could be, but I'm gonna wait for more reports. The whole story is based on citing "local (Turkish) papers" - which puts a fair bit of time delay between the bombing and the posting on the Russian source ... so why not a peep from other news sources, especially considering that there are plenty of reporters in Iraq?
It is possible that this is a false story. The Turkish public want to strike at the PKK, some are marching in the streets for it. This could be either crap journalism, or a Wag-the-Dog phony war ... or the real thing. I'm waiting a while yet.