Iran & Iraq and how they use the Palestinians

[Undertoad]

On 60 Minutes tonight, some credible evidence of how the system really works. Hundreds of documents in Arafat's handwriting, making deals with Iran and Iraq to send munitions, to fund bombing, to take delivery of C4 and the expertise in how to use it.

Not only did they send it all... Iran and Iraq also directed how and even when to use it.

Remember a few months back when we made the rounds with the Arab world, and got an earful from them about how <i>we shouldn't be so concered with Iraq, when after all, this Palestinian problem persists which we feel is a bigger problem.</i>

Why would both "secular" Iraq and "100% Islamic law" Iran both send bombs and bomb builders and money to Palestine? Maybe because it's like a magician causes you to watch one hand while the other hand is where the real action is. And maybe negotiating with Arafat is useless not because he's a tough negotiator, but because he isn't the true power broker here. Maybe he doesn't even have the ability to wage peace.

[hermit22]

Maybe it's just because I'm tired, but I have no idea what you're trying to get at here. It's beeen known for a while that about 98% of the Arab world supports a Palestinean state. And it should be obvious to anyone who takes some time to study the I/P conflict that both sides are led by incredibly fucked up men that have done some incredibly horrible things. Retaliation and escalation is how these men and their policies operate. So we give munitions to Israel, and Iran and Iraq give them to Palestine. That's the nature of the world.
Besides this, there's also the questions of when these documents were written and the actual legitimacy of them.

[jaguar]

I think hermit22 covered it.

[tw]

Originally posted by hermit22
It's beeen known for a while that about 98% of the Arab world supports a Palestinean state. And it should be obvious to anyone who takes some time to study the I/P conflict that both sides are led by incredibly fucked up men that have done some incredibly horrible things. ... Besides this, there's also the questions of when these documents were written and the actual legitimacy of them.

Based upon that logic as applied to the 60 minutes piece, then the US should also be declared a terrorist nation because the United States was the largest supplier of IRA weapons and money. Therein lies the problem with such blanket conclusions.

Iran is a country with two separate and competing governments. One that is democratically elected by a vast majority of the people, and the other that is extremist and openly supports overseas terrorists. This can be too complex for George Jr, but it should be obvious to those in the Cellar that Iran is as guilty of terrorism as any nation with the mafias. Do we therefore declare Italy or Russia as terrorist nations?

Support from the Iraqi government? Probably. They will export foreign aid just as we do under the title of military aid.

But the legitimacy of those 'captured' documents is questionable. This is an Israeli government run by a man with no ethics. A man who will do anything to advance himself and his causes including a massacre of 5,000 women and children and maybe even a massacre of Egyptian prisioners of war. Not to mention take the entire world to the brink of WWIII. Or to attack another nation in direct contradiction of orders from his Prime Minister.

Sharon wants the US to attack every Arab nation that might impeded his Pax Israel policies. He wants desperately to drag the US military into major Middle East conflicts since that instability would be only to his advantage. Forgeries of documents? Considering Sharon's history, that would be as innocent as Mother Theresa.

Why would Israelis fear having a US reporter touch C4 when the Isreali soldier had no fear of pressing it even to his body? Had this been the Israel of Peres, then evidence would have credibility. The fact that a reporter could not touch C4 would not be so suspicious - except that Sharon is the Prime Minister.

Sharon's government that cannot be trusted with any facts that might take the world into worldwide conflict for Israel's self serving benefit. Remember the objectives of Sharon. He wants the US military in action in the Middle East. US soldiers dying for the greater good of Israel, to Sharon, is a good thing. More US combat divisions is the better, as far as Sharon is concerned. This was be devestating to the US. But US credibility and integrity is of no concern to Sharon. A US military that might weaken any Arab nation is, to Sharon, in the best interest of Sharon. Until all those documents are released immediately to an honest government, then they will always be suspect as forgeries.

[jaguar]

Based upon that logic as applied to the 60 minutes piece, then the US should also be declared a terrorist nation because the United States was the largest supplier of IRA weapons and money.

You sure? Really?! I know allot of it came from the commies, that seems a bit of an odd combo. Plus britan being an ally and all.

[Undertoad]

So to sum up the tw AND hermit22 take, for those paying attention, the arms shipments are LEGITIMATE -- and of course the documents that prove the shipments are NOT.

Now for the obvious question: Why would there need to be faked documentation for legitimate arms shipments?

"I didn't shoot that gun! And it wasn't loaded, anyway!"

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Undertoad
So to sum up the tw AND hermit22 take, for those paying attention, the arms shipments are LEGITIMATE -- and of course the documents that prove the shipments are NOT.

Now for the obvious question: Why would there need to be faked documentation for legitimate arms shipments?

"I didn't shoot that gun! And it wasn't loaded, anyway!"

First off, they're legitimate only in that they're a natural part of the operations of today's world. But arms shipments != rogue, terrorist nation, even if it is to terrorists (remember, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter - ie. Nicaraguan Contras).

It would not be past Sharon to fake documentation to justify his own methods. He's been facing increasing opposition at home and abroad for his military interventions. He was facing trial at the ICJ until he had the key witness offed. So it wouldn't take much to have a subordinate write some arms sales documents and then go around claiming they're the real thing.

60 minutes is a pretty reputed news source, however. So who knows. I didn't see the piece, but I'm inclined to trust nothing that comes from Arafat or Sharon's mouth these days.

Originally posted by hermit22
he had the key witness offed.

As I understand it, there's no proof at all to this claim, and it's just a conspiracy theory.

Where's your evidence?

[hermit22]

Originally posted by dave


As I understand it, there's no proof at all to this claim, and it's just a conspiracy theory.

Where's your evidence?

It is a conspiracy theory. But all signs point to Sharon - he was about to testify, he hadn't been active in several years (during which the Syrians could have taken him out at any time - and they wanted to) and analysis of the bomb residue linked it to Israel. IIRC, the manner of the bombing (ignite a car as he drives past) left a signature of Sharon as well.

So, yeah, its all circumstantial, but now so is the evidence against Sharon in the refugee camp massacre.

[jaguar]

Oh. Right.

for those paying attention, the arms shipments are LEGITIMATE

The difference is?
What exactly makes any weapons shipment legitimate. Is giving redeye launchers to the Afghanis when they were fighting the soviets legitimate? Iran/Contra?