Chemical weapons finds

Undertoad · 04-07-2003, 11:40 AM

I'm sorry for being the thread starter so often in Current Events. I really don't mean to be so dominant but there is so much going on and it's all quite fascinating.

Over the last three days there have been a few reports of various chem finds, followed by heavy silence as people decide that they aren't equipped to figure out what they're finding and don't want to say any more. But the pattern is clear: some of these reports are starting to ring true, and if they don't quite constitute a "smoking gun" yet, they *will* after experts have had a chance to test and document everything.

Adjust your war attitudes accordingly!

I linked to the findings in that camp in the north, but there have been a few other, much more damning findings recently. In another, the 101st found missiles "ready to fire" were found tipped with sarin and mustard gas warheads.

This was on the heels of the news that several 101st soldiers and even journalists and prisoners had to be treated and hosed down with bleach after they suffered some physical effects from being close to possible nerve agents.

Saturday we had a determination that cyanide and mustard had been dumped in the Euphrates river.

But this one made the NY Times. Sarin, mustard, tabun. 55-gallon drums. At a military site, not an industrial plant, so this can't be a "dual use" situation.

04-07-2003, 11:44 AM

Yea but teh US slod them teh wepons bakc in '84 so its you're fault.

slang · 04-07-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dave
Yea but the US sold them the weapons back in '84 so its you're fault.

Or....was it the French that sold it to them? Recently.

jaguar · 04-07-2003, 04:38 PM

All i've heard here is that they found some drums which may or may not be pesticides.

wolf · 04-07-2003, 05:00 PM

That was just the latest batch.

jaguar · 04-07-2003, 05:34 PM

Well it seems they were sold up until around '94 actually, and if you're going to quote me, at least use the quote function dave, you've been here long enough to know it. The US giveth leadership, the US taketh away leadership, ah the beautiful circle of tinpot dictatorial life.

Undertoad · 04-07-2003, 06:14 PM

Accompanying documentation or trademarks and serial numbers may indicate who sold what to whom and when.

With luck there will be financial transaction records hanging around too, to audit the whole thing. The intelligence effort here is going to be enormous and will certainly take months.

What could speed it up would be if civilians involved came forward with information they had and assisted in the whole thing.

BrianR · 04-07-2003, 06:28 PM

I hear now that in at least one situation that the suspected chemical agents turned out to be pesticide, not chemicals used to exterminate people.

I almost posted the news when I heard it but I was waiting for corroboration from a makor news source to which I could link, just so that I couldn't be accused of making up things or being a knee-jerker.

Brian

elSicomoro · 04-07-2003, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Adjust your war attitudes accordingly!

"Let's not go sucking each other's dicks just yet"--Mr. Wolf (Harvey Keitel) from Pulp Fiction

So, let's say these are indeed WMDs. Okay...I'm not surprised.

Of course, I don't oppose the war b/c I thought Iraq was sans these items.

tw · 04-07-2003, 08:51 PM

Finding a nerve agent after the fact does not constitute a smoking gun. By definition, the smoking gun - the threat - must exist clear and obvious before war as to justify war.

The guy has a crooked nose. Therefore he must have been cooking up massive batches of explosive. What kind of justificaton is that? Even if investigators find that batch of explosives, the evidence would have been rightly thrown out of court. 'Smoking gun' evidence must exist before the act is legal - execution of search warrant OR war.

It does not matter if the cop KNOWs what the criminal is thinking. If the cop cannot first prove his knowledge, then the search warrant cannot be issued. If someone gets killed, well, that is unfortunately but necessary to preserve something more important - both rule of law and the purpose of those laws.

Whether nerve or chemical agents exist is irrelevant. I am quite surprised none were used in battle since I expected them to exist and to be used. However it still appears as if Saddam had zero WMD - or so few that the number rounds off to zero. Lots of speculation and still no proof.

Whether he did or not is irrelevant. The proof must exist before war starts - or there is no smoking gun to justify that war.

juju · 04-07-2003, 09:15 PM

Perhaps they had proof that they couldn't show to the public for some reason or another?

elSicomoro · 04-07-2003, 09:24 PM

I understand that the Bush administration was concerned about revealing too much before the war for security reasons...but if they really wanted to make their case at the UN, they needed to provide a bit more information, IMO. Powell's presentation was lame-o.

Undertoad · 04-07-2003, 09:34 PM

As Den Beste puts it,

Quote:

it truly is a hypothetical question, because it's virtually certain that they do. As someone pointed out, to believe that they do not you'd have to believe that after they kicked the inspectors out, they then spontaneously destroyed the remaining chemical and biological weapons known to still exist at that time, but to not keep any records of having done so and to not include any such records or proof in the report they provided to the UN last December, and to actively resist all attempts to confirm that they were gone during the inspections in December and January.

jaguar · 04-07-2003, 10:47 PM

I'm wondering then, why aren't they using them? I mean there are troops on the tigris ffs!

elSicomoro · 04-07-2003, 11:02 PM

If you declare you have none, then use them, that kinda puts your ass in a sling.

04-07-2003, 11:40 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Chemical weapons finds I'm sorry for being the thread starter so often in Current Events. I really don't mean to be so dominant but there is so much going on and it's all quite fascinating. Over the last three days there have been a few reports of various chem finds, followed by heavy silence as people decide that they aren't equipped to figure out what they're finding and don't want to say any more. But the pattern is clear: some of these reports are starting to ring true, and if they don't quite constitute a "smoking gun" yet, they will after experts have had a chance to test and document everything. Adjust your war attitudes accordingly! I linked to the findings in that camp in the north, but there have been a few other, much more damning findings recently. In another, the 101st found missiles "ready to fire" were found tipped with sarin and mustard gas warheads. This was on the heels of the news that several 101st soldiers and even journalists and prisoners had to be treated and hosed down with bleach after they suffered some physical effects from being close to possible nerve agents. Saturday we had a determination that cyanide and mustard had been dumped in the Euphrates river. But this one made the NY Times. Sarin, mustard, tabun. 55-gallon drums. At a military site, not an industrial plant, so this can't be a "dual use" situation.

04-07-2003, 04:38 PM	#4
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	All i've heard here is that they found some drums which may or may not be pesticides. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-07-2003, 05:00 PM	#5
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	That was just the latest batch. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

04-07-2003, 05:34 PM	#6
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well it seems they were sold up until around '94 actually, and if you're going to quote me, at least use the quote function dave, you've been here long enough to know it. The US giveth leadership, the US taketh away leadership, ah the beautiful circle of tinpot dictatorial life. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-07-2003, 06:28 PM	#8
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	I hear now that in at least one situation that the suspected chemical agents turned out to be pesticide, not chemicals used to exterminate people. I almost posted the news when I heard it but I was waiting for corroboration from a makor news source to which I could link, just so that I couldn't be accused of making up things or being a knee-jerker. Brian __________________ Never be afraid to tell the world who you are. -- Anonymous

04-07-2003, 11:44 AM	#2
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Yea but teh US slod them teh wepons bakc in '84 so its you're fault.

04-07-2003, 06:14 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Accompanying documentation or trademarks and serial numbers may indicate who sold what to whom and when. With luck there will be financial transaction records hanging around too, to audit the whole thing. The intelligence effort here is going to be enormous and will certainly take months. What could speed it up would be if civilians involved came forward with information they had and assisted in the whole thing.

04-07-2003, 08:51 PM	#10
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Finding a nerve agent after the fact does not constitute a smoking gun. By definition, the smoking gun - the threat - must exist clear and obvious before war as to justify war. The guy has a crooked nose. Therefore he must have been cooking up massive batches of explosive. What kind of justificaton is that? Even if investigators find that batch of explosives, the evidence would have been rightly thrown out of court. 'Smoking gun' evidence must exist before the act is legal - execution of search warrant OR war. It does not matter if the cop KNOWs what the criminal is thinking. If the cop cannot first prove his knowledge, then the search warrant cannot be issued. If someone gets killed, well, that is unfortunately but necessary to preserve something more important - both rule of law and the purpose of those laws. Whether nerve or chemical agents exist is irrelevant. I am quite surprised none were used in battle since I expected them to exist and to be used. However it still appears as if Saddam had zero WMD - or so few that the number rounds off to zero. Lots of speculation and still no proof. Whether he did or not is irrelevant. The proof must exist before war starts - or there is no smoking gun to justify that war.

04-07-2003, 09:15 PM	#11
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Perhaps they had proof that they couldn't show to the public for some reason or another?

04-07-2003, 09:24 PM	#12
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I understand that the Bush administration was concerned about revealing too much before the war for security reasons...but if they really wanted to make their case at the UN, they needed to provide a bit more information, IMO. Powell's presentation was lame-o.

04-07-2003, 10:47 PM	#14
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I'm wondering then, why aren't they using them? I mean there are troops on the tigris ffs! __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-07-2003, 11:02 PM	#15
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	If you declare you have none, then use them, that kinda puts your ass in a sling.

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