Cultural shifts and reversals

[DanaC]

One of things that always fascinates me in the study of history is the way aspects of culture shift from one paradigm to another. Like,for instance, with masculinity. We tend to think of masculine qualities as fixed, almost static, or at least shifting along quite a short spectrum. The idea of male stoicism, for example, that men are less emotionally driven than women, that to openly express deep emotion is in somesense unmanly - feels like something that has always been and is only really being challenged in recent decades.

And yet there have been times in western history when to feel things deeply, and be moved to tears by sentiment or beauty was a component of acceptable manliness. Often followed by periods of reaction to that, with a closing down of male emotional expression, or a refocussing of male appreciation for homosocial activity (defeminise through segregation from female company). Activities which had been a glorious and manly exploration of the sublime became frivolous and feminine. I'm grossly simplifying of course - they're all parts of more complicated social and cultural developments with a myriad of interlocking as well as countervailing aspects - but you get the gist. From easy tears to a stiff upper lip in a handful of generations.

Femininity has been through similar shifts - as has religiosity, attitudes to science and the arts. It's lazy of me, really to call them reversals - they sometimes are, but mostly they're just developments and reactions that look like reversals. But they are fun and they show a fluidity that you don't get to see so much when you're in it. Or at least, didn't get to see - changing media brings some of it into sharper focus.

Gender is the area I've studied a little and have a long-standing interest in - but you see it in all sorts of things. What sparked this thread was actually an article about changes in how tipping has been viewed in american culture. Tipping is one those things that I think of as quintessentially american. Like many brits, I find tipping a source of discomfort - I am never really sure when to tip or not to tip, how much to tip - when a tip is in fact an essential part of the remuneration for the people who've done the work (like a taxi driver), in which case I feel very guilty not tipping, or tipping low and generally apologise for that, and when it is a nice bonus for the staff that gets shared at the end of the week (my niece's bar job), in which case I don't feel bad for not tipping every time but would throw some spare change in the tip jar when I have it. Sometimes it's clear and sometimes it isn't. It's horrible and socially awkward and complicates the totting up of a restaurant bill with discussions about how much we should be tipping. I'm slightly envious of the ease with which americans seem to navigate that stuff.

So, I found this article really interesting.

https://wamu.org/news/15/11/30/when_...ly_un_american

When tipping began to spread in post-Civil War America, it was tarred as "a cancer in the breast of democracy," "flunkeyism" and "a gross and offensive caricature of mercy." But the most common insult hurled at it was "offensively un-American."

Loathed as a master-serf custom of the caste-bound Old World that went back to the Middle Ages, tipping was blamed for encouraging servility and degrading America's democratic, puritanical, and anti-aristocratic ethic. European immigrants surging into the U.S. were charged with bringing this deplorable custom with them. But in fact, it was also American tourists, like the characters in Henry James' novels, who picked up the restaurant conventions of the Continent, and imported them back to America.

[Clodfobble]

Mr. Clod and I regularly have discussions about tipping, because he still lives in the mindset that 15% is normal, 18% for good service. I have been trying to convince him that for better or for worse, the convention now is 20% standard, and anything less is a deliberate insult, and I don't want him to insult our always very nice and helpful waitstaff.

I'm with the British (or modern Brits, at least) on the horrible social uncertainty. Generally I've just decided on safety by overtipping all the time. I like places that charge what is right from the outset and don't allow tipping.

[glatt]

Tipping is mostly easy. We just give 20% of the total before taxes. More if we are feeling generous or particularly impressed with the service.

But there are a few places where it's tricky. Like if you order from a counter and there is a tip jar by the register. Mostly in those situations, I consider how much the workers helped me and also eyeball them and the place and guess at how well they are paid. I generally will never drop anything other than the coins I got as change unless there is a very compelling reason to do so. And often I won't even drop any coins. You don't tip at McDonalds, and if there was ever anyone who could use a little extra, it's those poor bastards.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

One of things that always fascinates me in the study of history is the way aspects of culture shift from one paradigm to another. Like,for instance, with masculinity. We tend to think of masculine qualities as fixed, almost static, or at least shifting along quite a short spectrum. The idea of male stoicism, for example, that men are less emotionally driven than women, that to openly express deep emotion is in somesense unmanly - feels like something that has always been and is only really being challenged in recent decades.

Where do you get this information, books, newspapers, poems, essays? Are people who write, the same as, travel in the same circles, or even accurately observe, the masses? Things written by literate people are read by literate people who agree that Joe Schmo down the street thinks this, feels that. Joe can read and write, but can't be bothered to refute some edumacated candyass writer even if he had the means.

The internet has changed that, a platform for the common man. Some of the statements people make, which are cherry picked and posted for amusement, make us wonder if there's intelligent life on earth. But those don't really represent the masses. I wonder how many surf the net, laugh at cat pictures, read and accept or reject, but never write a word? Or how many don't write until they read something that pisses them off so much they respond with an incoherent babble from sheer rage. So does what we see on the net give us an accurate picture of what the masses think?

Like many brits, I find tipping a source of discomfort

So do most Americans. I always had mixed emotions because I knew a lot of people in service industries and marveled when they would wax poetic about someone leaving an extraordinary tip. But money was always being stretched to cover needs and some wants.
Now there's enough money(I'm single), to cover my needs and wants, I generally over tip, but try to split before they discover it.

[fargon]

I made my living off of tips for many years, as a cab driver. My Mother was a waitress. I always tip at least 20%.

[Gravdigr]

I don't tip anyone who makes more money than I do. For the last few years, that's damn near everybody.

I do tip fairly well at the bar. But, those are people that I know and like. I sit in the same section, if not the same booth every time I don't sit at the bar. I'll throw the bartender a fiver when I leave, in addition to tipping the waitress, because she (the bartender) still poured my beer, loaded my bucket, or, mixed the drink the waitress brought to me...

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by DanaC

... I am never really sure when to tip or not to tip, ... Sometimes it's clear and sometimes it isn't. ...

With prostitutes it depends on where you find one. It's like the difference between going to a McDonald's or a high end restaurant.

So I've heard.

[lumberjim]

Tipping a waiter is simple. Tipping a delivery guy is not. Most places charge a delivery fee.... Who gets that? It can be 1 to 3 bucks.... If the order is $40, 20% is absurd.... You gotta figure they are getting at least 8-10 dollars per hour from the restaurant... And probably the delivery fee... And then the tip...

I usually give them 10%.... Rounded up to the next dollar...

At restaurants I go 20% rounded up. Piss me off with bad service and you'll get 15%. I would never stiff a server. People that do should be shaved and painted yellow.

[Clodfobble]

On the other hand, drivers have to pay for the wear on their car, which is significant. But my pizza job was paying drivers 8-10 back in 1998, so it's gotta be more now.

[xoxoxoBruce]

But I figure it's worth it not to have to put clothes on

[lumberjim]

All they do is hand you the bag of food though. They're not running back for your ranch dressing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well there is the little matter of getting the food from where I don't want to go, to where I am, in good condition and a reasonably timely manner. Plus not spit in it like he did to the last guy that stiffed him out of his tip.

[lumberjim]

I've never stiffed a waiter or a driver.

[Griff]

Ever ah... stiff a waitress?

[fargon]

While I have given a stiff one to many waitresses, I have never stiffed a waitress.