A fine display

Undertoad · 06-27-2003, 02:21 PM

<i>In a symbolic gesture of gratitude to the U.S. Supreme Court for striking down a Texas law that banned gay sex acts, San Francisco gay leaders took down the huge rainbow flag that permanently graces the corner of Market and Castro streets and hoisted the Stars and Stripes.</i>

This strikes me as a fine point: for one day in 2003 we are all one America again, and freedom is what makes us that way.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-27-2003, 03:44 PM

I wish it was more than a temporary set back for the fools that think they know what's best for everyone else.

Griff · 06-27-2003, 04:22 PM

I thought that was a meaningful gesture as well. The SC came around to a truly American position by focusing on what makes us all more free. I feel more free knowing that there is now one less reason for someones door frame to shatter.

wandering off topic
Tangentally, Bruce Ramsey made a nice point about the value of compromise in the most recent Liberty Magazine.

We are libertarians because liberty is our central political value. It is our defining principle, our badge. That does not mean we follow it without thinking.

Its too bad that neither of the major parties has anything but contempt for my central value. Imagine an election cycle where competing visions of freedom are argued rather than competing visions of oppresion. Oh well, ya gotta dream.

Dr. Zaius · 06-27-2003, 07:09 PM

Well you've already got your wild-eyed religious right types hollering about this being the beginning of an "all-out assault on the institution of marriage." You better believe they will be trying harder than ever to pack the SC with minds that think like they do.

Undertoad · 06-27-2003, 07:48 PM

If they do they will lose. Here's the Gallup people's story on their poll numbers on the topic. Note the story's date is today, howzat for service.

Six in 10 Americans Agree That Gay Sex Should Be Legal

This is an interesting issue because in the last 15 years, it has flipped. In 1987, 35% said "should be legal" and 57% said "should be illegal", and today 62% say "should be legal" and 31% say "should be illegal".

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say things are getting better, things are changing, but we can't see it because we're in it.

The shift from "unacceptable lifestyle" to "acceptable lifestyle" made a similar shift over the last 6 years, from 50-40 to 40-50.

The majority shift from against to in favor of gay marriage or civil unions is happening right now.

Griff · 06-27-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Well you've already got your wild-eyed religious right types hollering about this being the beginning of an "all-out assault on the institution of marriage." You better believe they will be trying harder than ever to pack the SC with minds that think like they do.

Do you think we're hearing more from the "wild eyed" right and left because the last two Presidents have played the triangulation game, stealing voters from the other party instead of appealing to their most motivated voters? Bush wants this drug benefit and I doubt its Republicans asking for it.

Elspode · 06-27-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Well you've already got your wild-eyed religious right types hollering about this being the beginning of an "all-out assault on the institution of marriage."

Yeah, now that gay sex is legal, I know that I'm gonna get divorced and go find me a real man's man.

What a great load of hooey. If anything, this ruling will increase the number of marriages in this country, because it will be a logical next step to legalize gay marriages since gay sex is no longer illegal.

Fundies crack me up...like laws keep people from screwing each other anyway. Does anyone for one moment think that just because anti-sodomy laws were on the books that two people in lust with one another stopped and went, "No, no...we'd better not...State Statute 121.75 Section C says that we can't."

elSicomoro · 06-27-2003, 09:48 PM

As I mentioned in March, this is a conservative quagmire: privacy in the home, but the act in the home is "immoral."

In watching the reactions this week, I've noticed that the "standard" conservatives have been rather quiet on the issue, while the extremists have been crying about the immorality of it.

I'm not sure if the times have changed enough in the States to allow gay marriages yet. But given the shift in attitudes in recent times, I think it will eventually become a reality.

Dr. Zaius · 06-28-2003, 12:09 AM

The funny thing is that the current story in Newsweek is how married couples are too tired and stressed out with kids and careers to have sex these days.
So if we let gays get married and adopt kids ergo they'll stop having sex....morality problem solved.

Okay...okay...very tongue in cheek. Ummm. By the way is that legal?

elSicomoro · 06-28-2003, 12:31 AM

Was that the same story where they said gay male couples were getting some more than straight couples?

Elspode · 06-28-2003, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Okay...okay...very tongue in cheek. Ummm. By the way is that legal?

Yes, as long it is your own cheek...

wolf · 06-28-2003, 12:44 AM

There's a lot being said about gay marriage ... but I wonder if anyone has done any projections on the potential gay divorce rate?

(I can see the attorneys rubbing their hands together and chortling even now ...)

Uryoces · 06-28-2003, 05:05 AM

All I could think of when I heard the news was somewhere, there is a newspaper headline: "Anti-Sodomy Laws Poo-pooed."

xoxoxoBruce · 06-28-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

So if we let gays get married and adopt kids ergo they'll stop having sex....morality problem solved

Damn! I wish I'd said that. That's really funny.

Quote:

"Anti-Sodomy Laws Poo-pooed."

So's that. giggle, giggle.
I think they'll have a tough row to hoe getting gay marriage through though. Sex is one thing, legal benefits are another. Tax breaks and forcing employers to pick up gay partners benefits, step on more toes than morals do. I know some companies already do, but most don't.

06-27-2003, 02:21 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	A fine display <i>In a symbolic gesture of gratitude to the U.S. Supreme Court for striking down a Texas law that banned gay sex acts, San Francisco gay leaders took down the huge rainbow flag that permanently graces the corner of Market and Castro streets and hoisted the Stars and Stripes.</i> This strikes me as a fine point: for one day in 2003 we are all one America again, and freedom is what makes us that way.

06-27-2003, 03:44 PM	#2
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I wish it was more than a temporary set back for the fools that think they know what's best for everyone else. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-27-2003, 04:22 PM	#3
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I thought that was a meaningful gesture as well. The SC came around to a truly American position by focusing on what makes us all more free. I feel more free knowing that there is now one less reason for someones door frame to shatter. wandering off topic Tangentally, Bruce Ramsey made a nice point about the value of compromise in the most recent Liberty Magazine. We are libertarians because liberty is our central political value. It is our defining principle, our badge. That does not mean we follow it without thinking. Its too bad that neither of the major parties has anything but contempt for my central value. Imagine an election cycle where competing visions of freedom are argued rather than competing visions of oppresion. Oh well, ya gotta dream. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis Last edited by Griff; 06-27-2003 at 04:24 PM.

06-28-2003, 12:44 AM	#12
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	There's a lot being said about gay marriage ... but I wonder if anyone has done any projections on the potential gay divorce rate? (I can see the attorneys rubbing their hands together and chortling even now ...) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

06-28-2003, 05:05 AM	#13
Uryoces 2nd Covenant, yo Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Pugetropolis Posts: 583	All I could think of when I heard the news was somewhere, there is a newspaper headline: "Anti-Sodomy Laws Poo-pooed." __________________ The party's over ... the drink ... and the luck ... ran out.

06-27-2003, 07:09 PM	#4
Dr. Zaius Superior Inhabitant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ape City Posts: 73	Well you've already got your wild-eyed religious right types hollering about this being the beginning of an "all-out assault on the institution of marriage." You better believe they will be trying harder than ever to pack the SC with minds that think like they do.

06-27-2003, 07:48 PM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	If they do they will lose. Here's the Gallup people's story on their poll numbers on the topic. Note the story's date is today, howzat for service. Six in 10 Americans Agree That Gay Sex Should Be Legal This is an interesting issue because in the last 15 years, it has flipped. In 1987, 35% said "should be legal" and 57% said "should be illegal", and today 62% say "should be legal" and 31% say "should be illegal". This is the sort of thing I mean when I say things are getting better, things are changing, but we can't see it because we're in it. The shift from "unacceptable lifestyle" to "acceptable lifestyle" made a similar shift over the last 6 years, from 50-40 to 40-50. The majority shift from against to in favor of gay marriage or civil unions is happening right now.

06-27-2003, 09:48 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	As I mentioned in March, this is a conservative quagmire: privacy in the home, but the act in the home is "immoral." In watching the reactions this week, I've noticed that the "standard" conservatives have been rather quiet on the issue, while the extremists have been crying about the immorality of it. I'm not sure if the times have changed enough in the States to allow gay marriages yet. But given the shift in attitudes in recent times, I think it will eventually become a reality.

06-28-2003, 12:09 AM	#9
Dr. Zaius Superior Inhabitant Join Date: May 2003 Location: Ape City Posts: 73	The funny thing is that the current story in Newsweek is how married couples are too tired and stressed out with kids and careers to have sex these days. So if we let gays get married and adopt kids ergo they'll stop having sex....morality problem solved. Okay...okay...very tongue in cheek. Ummm. By the way is that legal?

06-28-2003, 12:31 AM	#10
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Was that the same story where they said gay male couples were getting some more than straight couples?

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