insanity: the journey or the destination?

[lumberjim]

There are different types of mental illness. Some are treatable chemically, and therefore indicate some defect in the patient's chemical balance. Other types are not 'cureable' in this manner, suggesting that the process of thought itself is defective.

I've wondered about this in the past. Could it be that there is nothing 'wrong' with those folks, but with the perceptions of their friends or families as these people go through some kind of awakening or transition of self? In other words, perhaps these people....lets say scitzos, for example......are manifesting personalities that express long repressed facets of who they truly are.

We are raised in an environment that shows us what kind of person our peers EXPECT US TO BE. Obviously, we are not going to turn out that way if we don't embrace those standards and modify our inate behavior to suit. Perhaps the insane have reached a point where they can no longer reconcile the disparity of their true self and their 'accepted' self. So, a subconcious struggle ensues, and the person starts to exhibit conflicting behaviors, which scare them and those around them. So, they realize that they need to get help, and mistakenly interpret the change in them as defective behavior. They go to a shrink, who perpetuates that feeling ( a shrink is there to fix things, right?) they counsel, or medicate based on the belief that they can 'fix' what's wrong.

maybe they should embrace the change, surrender to it, and see who they become when they come out the other side of it?

To present a view that suggests that 'insanity', as in 'schizophrenia', 'bipolar disorder' and 'depression', are not independently arising pathologies in their own right through some kind of innate biogenetic or biochemical 'defectiveness', but are behavioural variations induced in healthy but hypersensitive individuals through their immersion within a 'pathological normality' and are thus the variant, recalcitrant 'children' who are resisting their own assimilation into a 'pathological normality', is a conclusion that has been arrived at by a number of psychiatrists, including Ronald Laing, Thomas Szasz and John Weir Perry

.

from this page

which led me here

i have not read them both all the way through, but i saw enough to trigger some of the thoughts i'd had in the past about this.

If we encouraged the kooks to embrace their defects, would they be any worse off than they are struggling against themselves?

[wolf]

Trust me, there is something wrong with these people.

It's not a "sane reaction to a sick society" a la Thomas Szasz or R.D. Laing.

If by embracing their defects you mean "accept that they are mentally ill," it helps ... because if a person is no longer denying their illness, they just MIGHT be a bit more compliant with medications and therapy. But only a bit. Even people who know they are crazy go off their meds. Or sometimes the meds just stop working right.

[jaguar]

There are two ways to look at everything. I have an extreme dislike of pharmaceuticals being sued to treat what I feel are mental issues, not diseases, so called 'social anxiety' bullshit, some forms of depression etcetcetc. The way I see it, the increased use of medication to treat those conditions is downright scary, sign up for your soma and get back to work, baaa.

That said, some things like schizophrenia, at least as far as I understood, at least in many cases are the result of certain chemical imbalances in the brain that can be corrected but are to varying degrees something that can't be fixed by working though issues and the like.

I have a fair number of friends that tapdance on the edge of insanity, some are intensely creative, others work 48 hours straight, smoke 4 joints and turn out the next major innovation in computing. Most of the great thinkers in history were a little bit nuts, you have to be fairly out of line to be the first to see things in a way no-one has before. There are entire communities that exist on the fringes, rejecting what most people would term normality, doing their own thing. Most are far happier than the 'straight' people I know. For all Pfizer's talk of surgical accuracy in terms of what their drugs do they sure seem to be better at simply stopping someone feeling anything that getting rid of the daemons in their head. Certainly is cheaper I'm sure.

Hell, from personal experience, I'm a borderline dyslexic (you've all seen my typing, little shock there), I've been reccomended various drugs as well as antidepressants at times. I keep wierd hours, I get obsessive about things yet somehow I know I would mach rather be like this than drugged to the hilt walking round like a goddamn zombie. Hell I'd rather be like this than doing a damn 9-5 for the next 40 odd years.

[busterb]

Can you Say Ativian?

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by busterb

Can you Say Ativian?

Yes, I can. Can you spell it?

At·i·van ( P ) Pronunciation Key (t-vn)
<dl><dd> A trademark used for the drug lorazepam.</dd></dl>

[Clodfobble]

While I agree with you in the general sense, LJ, that the mildly depressive, manic, or otherwise slightly-nuts-but-fully-functioning folks should accept who they are and embrace the creative, productive, meditative, or whatever spurts as they come... the fact remains that severe cases of these diseases are often accompanied with violence. Think outside the box, color-code your M&M's to relax, whatever floats your boat--but if you are harmful to yourself or others, you need to be on meds.

[Undertoad]

There are two ways to look at everything. I have an extreme dislike of pharmaceuticals being sued to treat what I feel are mental issues, not diseases, so called 'social anxiety' bullshit, some forms of depression etcetcetc. The way I see it, the increased use of medication to treat those conditions is downright scary, sign up for your soma and get back to work, baaa.

Do I come across like that?

Paxil 15mg daily 5 years and counting

I'm a chronic panic sufferer with a side dish of social anxiety. The former behaviorally conditioned me for the latter; what would YOU do if you started out as a shy person, and then half the time you had dinner in public or went to a movie, you broke out in a cold sweat and palpitations and had to leave?

This has been something that has affected me my whole life. Better at times, worse at times, but nothing I'd wish on my worst enemy. Paxil at 20mg zombified me a little, but once I reached the right dosage for me I experience the full range of emotion, few troubling side-effects and most importantly, I get to feel normal and live a normal life.

15-20 years ago panic was completely misunderstood and widely misdiagnosed. Psych medications are nothing short of a revolution in treating it. I hope everyone who needs this medication gets it.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

the fact remains that severe cases of these diseases are often accompanied with violence. Think outside the box, color-code your M&M's to relax, whatever floats your boat--but if you are harmful to yourself or others, you need to be on meds.

Well, maybe in some cases the violence is a manifestation of the internal struggle for control?

I realize that there are those that are beyond help at this point, but I wonder whether they are at the end of a losing battle with themselves. now, if voices in their head start telling them to kill ronald reagan, (shut up, radar) then , yeah...ok. I was just thinking that maybe the whole psychoanalysis thing might be just slightly off track from the beginning which can snowball, leaving them well wide of the mark by the time they reach the end of our ability to help......which in fact was not help, but harm in the end.

I know i'm a total layman, and there is no way to prove my hypothesis, but i was hoping that some of you nut wranglers might have seen evidence of this kind of pheno. at work.

[lumberjim]

what would YOU do if you started out as a shy person, and then half the time you had dinner in public or went to a movie, you broke out in a cold sweat and palpitations and had to leave?

this would be the kind of thing i referred to as treatable chemical imbalance, then? I guess I'd take 15 mg of paxil everyday for 5 years and counting.

have you experimented with foregoing the meds? or does it take time to wear off/take effect again if it doesnt go well?

what was the basis for the anxiety? were you afraid of embarrassing yourself by saying something innapropriate, or was it a more general thing?

[jaguar]

Serious depression and panic attacks for two years, worked though the causes and they went away.

Why do you think you respond the way you do? What started it? Think about where you have them.

I know a number of people that think about them a very different way. A kind of natural warning system, crowded places, fluro lights jammed with ads, why shouldn't you panic? It's an aggressive atmosphere. To turn to a drug is hardly as effective as sitting down, meditating on what you need and acting to get it.

When you have a pain attack in a natural environment, with friendly people, let me know. We've created environments that aren't good for us, we live in ways that stifle our minds and then we wonder why some crack like a fucking egg. You've been on drugs for long enough it would be hard to say whether you're really in a position to judge what normal emotions are anymore.

Paxil works by detaching you from your own emotions, by dampening natural responses to stimuli, you think a cold sweat is the only thing being suppressed? How would you know. It works the same way as Prozac, blunts most of your frontal lobe, it's not some kind of magical surgical precision, it hits everything.

Do you come across like that? I couldn't tell, I don't know how you've changed.

[jaguar]

Look at the kind of questions that they want you to think are a disorder:
I am afraid of people in authority. (ever gone the principal's office?)
I am bothered by blushing in front of people.
Fear of embarassment stops me doing things.
I avoid giving speaches.

I must've missed the point where being human became a disorder.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

have you experimented with foregoing the meds? or does it take time to wear off/take effect again if it doesnt go well?

Paxil can make you physically ill for weeks when you go on/off of it. Not to mention the whole suicide factor.

Just a little anecdote, but I have a friend who has been on serious amounts of several antidepressants among other 'meds' for many, many years. She started seeing an acupuncturist and went off everything. I noticed no change in her at all. I knew about the acupuncturist but did not know about the meds until she told me a few months later.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Do I come across like that?

Certainly not in person.
LJ, give it up. You know you're nuts, we know you're nuts, now listen to Jinx and take your meds.

[jaguar]

Omega3 has a very positive impact for a lot of people.
Paxil is particularly nasty on the side effects, most people experience 'zaps', like someing applying electroshock directly tho their brain, often for up to a week.

[Undertoad]

Getting to the right level was the key. It takes 30-60 days for it to take overall effect, so changes in dosage have to be slow and steady. I got up to 20mg and especially by the third month, noticed all sorts of differences and improvements. After a year or so at that level, I really got weary of its side-effects, and I'd also gained a lot of weight. I backed off to 15 and did great and had none of the side-effects. After a while I went down to 10 and within 4 months had two pretty severe panic reactions. Back to 15 and I've been in pretty good condition and been able to lose much of the weight.

I say my condition is chronic because it has affected me during every part of my life including my childhood. Is there a chance I've got some weird psychological problem lodged in my head somewhere, that a few years of talk therapy might dislodge? Almost certainly!!! But firstly, who doesn't?? And secondly, I watched my ex run through three expensive therapists for ten years and still not be able to sit through an hour with her family. I'm not impressed.