Nuclear Iran is now the world's #1 problem

[Undertoad]

This Washingtion Post lead editorial makes clear that Iran's nuclear interest is in bomb-making, not power generation.

They wrote the editorial because yesterday Iran resumed Uranium enrichment, ending a diplomatic solution that was pressed by England, France, and Germany.

Basically, Europe said to Iran, "If you stop all uranium enrichment, and allow UN inspections, we will give you enough radioactive fuel to operate nuclear power plants."

Iran's answer is to say no, and restart enrichment. The next step is at the UN Security Council.

[Happy Monkey]

My guess: Iran and N. Korea are going to go full speed ahead on nukes, figuring that the US can only go after one of them, if even that, due to our Iraq war.

[tw]

This was posted previously in direct response to UT's topmost post:
Should a leader be tried if he builds weapons of mass destruction, uses those weapons in defense of his country, and loses the war? If the leader was told he was going to be attacked, and did not build those WMDs, then clearly he would be the enemy of his country - deserve to be impeached or assassinated.

Meanwhile Iran is doing just that - building WMDs because George Jr all but said we will invade Iran. And yet George Jr calls the Iranian leader evil for only doing what he must do for his country.

You tell me. Is that Iranian leader evil or is he good? Because he actually does what Saddam only threatened, then does this Iranian leader deserve to be attacked, captured, and put on trial like Saddam for using WMDs on invading American troops? You tell me where morality lies? Who then is the good and who then is the evil one?

Of couse Iran is building nuclear weapons or other WMDs. Any honest and patriotic leader working for his people must do same if threatened as George Jr has the Iranian people.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by tw

Meanwhile Iran is doing just that - building WMDs because George Jr all but said we will invade Iran. And yet George Jr calls the Iranian leader evil for only doing what he must do for his country.

This is what happens when you sleep under a rock for 25 years.

Iran has been attempting to join the nuclear community since the early 70s. And one can hardly blame them since it was common knowlege in privileged circles that the US had long since quietly ushered Isreal into the nuclear age by then.

By 1977, The Shah of Iran had grown weary of waiting for the US to usher Iran into the nuclear community so the Shah, fiercely loyal to the US up to that point, had no choice but to turn to our cold-war adversary, the USSR for help in building a nuclear arsenal. And the dominos were set into motion.

Enter the CIA (who all but issued the blindfolds).

Exit the Shah.

Enter the now-empowered Ayatollah.

Fast forward to 2005.

"Iran's and Korea's nuclear self-sufficiency is W's fault."

Now, if you want to assign the blame for instability in the middle east on the United States then we have a basis for healthy and interesting discussion and debate. But if you want to lay Iran's and NK's nuclear ambitions and current capability at the feet of George Bush, then I'm inclined to recommend that you augment your basis for forming an opinion of world politics on something other than NPR's Morning Edition.

If you want to blame a US president for both Iran's nuclear power grab cloaked under the guise of a self-deterministic Islamic jihad against the west and North Korea's unapologetic, self-empowering nuclear ambitions then blame Jimmy Carter - a key player in both - long before conservative power brokers even considered a perpetually drunk W as an easily manipulatable figurehead for the advancement of neoCon policy.

George W. Bush, while perhaps the most incompetent president in U. S. history, inherited a world where both Iran and NK are nuclear capable. Notwithstanding his role as a conduit for a reconstituted Pope Urban II model of world politics, putting the blame on W for NK and Iran's current nuclear capability is at best laughable and at worst doomed to repeat by propogating the idea that those who oppose it are responsible for it while issuing get-out-of-being-responsible cards to the weak-minded enablers who were either too naieve or too gutless to nip it in the bud when they had the chance. Bill Clinton, while hardly responible either, does not get a pass from the history books for looking the other way for eight long years while Iran and NK were unmistakebly taking giant steps towards arming themselves with atomic weapons.

So, let's all blame George. How is this position materially different from George's embarassingly simplistic view and and equally simplistic prescription for a solution?

W isn't the source of the problem, he's a sympton of the problem. The voters who elected the administrations who allowed this situation to fester and develop with their placating policies of carrot-but-no-stick are as much to blame for the current state of affairs as the voters who elected W in a desperate attempt to do something about it.

I'll take my share of the blame. Will you?

[Amnesiac42]

[quote=tw]Should a leader be tried if he builds weapons of mass destruction, uses those weapons in defense of his country, and loses the war? If the leader was told he was going to be attacked, and did not build those WMDs, then clearly he would be the enemy of his country - deserve to be impeached or assassinated.[quote]

ok. in my opinion...

because there are already nuclear powers in the world, other nations are automatically going to follow with their own nuclear weapons programs. as a leader of a nation in a world run by nuclear powers, it is only logical to arm yourself in defense of nuclear attack, especially when the power seeking unilateral hegemony has shown in the past it is not shy about using WMD; if we continue to raise the bar, other nations will only try to catch up. it's an arms race. if China developed a weapon that could control a localized black hole, we would undoubtly develop one ourselves, and iran, n korea, and others would follow as they desire to "play ball" with the world powers.

now, america has only recently complicated this by introducing the pre-emptive strike against iraq. If a nation can attack another nation on false intelligence and the UN allows it to happen without consequence, then it follows that ANY nation could by the same standards attack another nation and legally get away with it.

so, exponential arms race + unilateral hegemonous nuclear power + weak diplomatic communications between nations + new pre-emptive strike policy = ?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Amnesiac42

so, exponential arms race + unilateral hegemonous nuclear power + weak diplomatic communications between nations + new pre-emptive strike policy = ?

Don't stop there. You are introducing reasons for a potentially unstable world. Two more reasons. The first is universal unpopularity of the world's leading nations. These nations whose leaders wanted to permit torture by selected parts of the government. This anti-humanity attitude being another legacy of a mental midget president who created a 64% unapproved rating even in Argentina. When you promise to improve relations with S American nations and then do completely the opposite, then what does one expect? Demonstrations? Insurgencies? Breeding grounds for international terrorism? Concepts that 'we will bomb them into submission' extremists selectively void discussing to promote their own 'self serving' political agenda.

Another is the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty that George Jr, with his infinite wisdom, has decided to undermine. The concepts of the NPT are really quite simple, have been mostly effective, and are the only thing we have to stop a nuclear war. It was used successfully to stop nuclear bomb construction in Argentina, South Africa, Brazil, and even (in conjunction with other factors) in Libya. Furthermore, because of NPT, the sources of nuclear proliferation were exposed. A major source being Pakistan.

A major point of NPT is that a nation who violates or refuses to participate in NPT is denied access to materials even for medical purposes and power plants. Previous NPT actions are why Argentina, South Africa, and Brazil opted out of their nuclear bomb programs. But George Jr has instead decided to reward India with nuclear material cooperation even though India does not participate and refuses to permit NPT inspections.

So many reasons demonstrate that this president has the mental capacity of Dan Quayle. World wide instability is what happens when mental midgets even violate (are totally ignorant of) even basic world concepts and essential principles as taught in 500 B.C - Sze Tzu's Art of War.

He destroyed the anti-ballistic missile treaty, has destroyed treaties to stop military weapons in space, attacked a sovereign nation with a 'smoking gun', conducted war without even a legal justification such as a Declaration of War, has declared himself a tool of god's will (always a reason for the worst of and most unstable times), is spending massive money on things that don't even work such as the anti-ballistic missile system, is building military bases throughout the world as if he wants another world war, lies - openly lies, and rewards others who would also contribute to world instability such as Pakistan. This is obviously a very abridged list of how George Jr wants Revelations to occur.

George Jr’s undermining of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty demonstrates why extremist, mental midget, and self serving leaders only make for a bad and unstable world. Don't stop there. You are introducing the reasons for a potentially unstable world. Two more reasons. The first is universal unpopularity with the world's leading nations. This being another legacy of a mental midget president who created a 64% unapproved rating even in Argentina. When you promise to improve relations with S American nations and then do completely the opposite, then what does one expect? Demonstrations? Insurgencies? Breeding grounds for international terrorism? Concepts that 'we will bomb them into submission' extremists selectively avoid discussing to promote their own 'self serving' political agendas - the world be damned.

Another is the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty that George Jr, with his infinite wisdom, has decided to undermine. The concepts of the NPT are really quite simple, have been mostly effective, and are the only thing we have to stop a nuclear war. It was used successfully to stop nuclear bomb construction in Argentina, South Africa, Brazil, and even (in conjunction with other factors) in Libya. Furthermore, because of NPT, the sources of nuclear proliferation were exposed. A major source being Pakistan.

A major point of NPT is that a nation who violates or refuses to participate in NPT is denied access to materials even for medical purposes and power plants. Previous NPT actions are why Argentina, South Africa, and Brazil opted out of their nuclear bomb programs. But George Jr has instead decided to reward India with nuclear material cooperation even though India does not participate and refuses to permit NPT inspections.

So many reasons demonstrate that this president has the mental capacity of Dan Quayle. World wide instability is what happens when mental midgets even violate (are totally ignorant of) even basic world concepts and essential principles as taught in 500 B.C - Sze Tzu's Art of War.

He destroyed the anti-ballistic missile treaty, has destroyed treaties to stop military weapons in space, attacked a sovereign nation with a 'smoking gun', conducted war without even a legal justification such as a Declaration of War, has declared himself a tool of god's will (always a reason for the worst of and most unstable times), is spending massive money on things that don't even work such as the anti-ballistic missile system, is building military bases throughout the world as if he wants another world war, lies - openly lies, and rewards others who would also contribute to world instability such as Pakistan. This is obviously a very abridged list of how George Jr wants Revelations to occur.

George Jr’s undermining of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty demonstrates why extremist, mental midget, and self serving leaders only make for a bad and unstable world. Make globalization into something evil AND destroy treaties that took generations to create and establish world stability. Containment being a well proven example of why the world did not self destruct. Pre-emption being the classic and 'well proven in history' reason for death, poverty, disease, recessions, and mas destruction. If there ever were an anti-Christ, it would be leaders who just know only because of their religion - who didn't even know what countries border Israel.

[richlevy]

At this point, it appears Washington is going to give India a pass on having to sign the non-proliferation treaty. This is mostly because Pakistan won't sign it either.

Since we value India as a democracy in it's region, we will probably not hold sanctions against them.

If we refuse to sanction Pakistan and India, who have performed nuclear tests (Israel has not and is not officially a nuclear power), North Korea and Iran can make the valid claim that they are being treated differently from 'friends' of the US.

[Undertoad]

Ah, but tw, it's your take on things that the US is losing the war in Iraq. Therefore, the US can already be stopped using conventional weaponry.

Conventional Iranian weaponry, if you take seriously the Pentagon's press conference today in which they announced that a crapload of weapons are coming over the Iranian border.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ah, but tw, it's your take on things that the US is losing the war in Iraq. Therefore, the US can already be stopped using conventional weaponry.

Conventional Iranian weaponry, if you take seriously the Pentagon's press conference today in which they announced that a crapload of weapons are coming over the Iranian border.

Yeah, but nuclear bombs are so much more fun!

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ah, but tw, it's your take on things that the US is losing the war in Iraq. Therefore, the US can already be stopped using conventional weaponry.

There's stopped, and then there's stopped. I doubt Iran relishes the idea of becoming another battleground.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Ah, but tw, it's your take on things that the US is losing the war in Iraq. Therefore, the US can already be stopped using conventional weaponry.

That is your bias. Show me where said "the US is losing the war in Iraq". You have assumed a binary interpretation of what I have posted.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Conventional Iranian[ weaponry, if you take seriously the Pentagon's press conference today in which they announced that a crapload of weapons are coming over the Iranian border.

Using your same logic, the US was attacking Britain because most IRA weapons were obtained from American support. Selecting a Pentagon suspicion as if it were fact is again trying to interpret everything in 'Black and White'.

Need we return to Pentagon suspicions 30 years ago? Once numbers were summed, then we had killed everyone in N Vietnam three times over. The suspicion is interesting. It also forgets to mention weapons coming from Turkey, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia.

Remember those high explosives left unguarded during the invasion? High explosives originally purchased over a decade ago to build a nuclear bomb? Why do they not mention all those munitions? I suppose all those unguarded and now missing explosives, carefully tagged by UN inspectors, and not guarded by US soldiers, suddenly don't exist? It’s called propaganda when they fail to mention all the sources of munitions. Remember who shorted the US invasion of troops before you cast all blame on Iran.

We would not be in this mess if a president was honest. Let's remember which one of us bought previous administration spin even about aluminum tubes and other WMD lies. It's called first looking at the bigger picture - and other simpler facts such as the numbers. That isolated Pentagon briefing is Pentagon suspicion. Hell, Pentagon officials cannot even identify who the enemy is, how large their numbers, what inspires them, how insurgent got back into Fallujah, or even why the country is in expanding turmoil. There are no large number of foreigners as some Pentagon officials once claimed.

Suddenly this one Pentagon briefing is a god-like fact? I suspect not. Just another suspicion probably based upon intelligence estimates ... and hopefully not perverted by White House propaganda. But then we can never be sure considering the reputation of this administration that has a long history of outright lying - be it welfare to drug companies and the cost of government medical benefits, social security, the $2billion from oil that was going to pay for this war, all the electricity in Iraq that does not exist, or even global warming. Its nothing more than Pentagon suspicion - from a source previously and repeatedly perverted by their boss' political and self serving agenda.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I don't recall ever being promised Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the war. There was some optimistic talk about it, but promises? Nope.

There's fair criticism of the Bush Administration's actions, and there is unfair. TW's is fanatically, furiously, rabidly and voluminously unfair. TW, when it comes to Republicans you have no ethics -- only one of the most inflated senses of grievance I've ever seen.

[Happy Monkey]

I'm sure Congress is happy to know that the testimony before it was just a bit of optimistic talk.

What a wonderful excuse! "I never made any promises, that was just optimistic talk!" Is there anything that doesn't work for?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

So do you hear any wrath from Congress about that? The art of the possible, HM, the art of the possible.

[Griff]

mid-term elections