93 Year Old WWII Vet Freezes to Death at Home...

dmg1969 · 01-27-2009, 12:49 PM

after his electric use was limited by the power company due to an unpaid balance. How sick is this?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/...llYXItb2xkZg--

Sundae · 01-27-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

"I've said this before and some of my colleagues have said this: Neighbors need to keep an eye on neighbors," Belleman said. "When they think there's something wrong, they should contact the appropriate agency or city department."

Sadly, this is the only answer. If he was not in a position to come to an agreement with the electricity people - and older people often aren't, having been raised to obey orders and respect authority - then there are no warning signs for the electricity company.

They cannot know whether the user lives with children and grandchildren who are capable of dealing with this, whether he is short of funds and refusing to pay, whether he needs social care. They are a business after all.

I do feel this is very sad (we have cold weather payments in this country to help the 60+ and higher for the 80+) but it could happen here as well. I'd like to think that our OAPs would at least have daily carers that they could speak to, but tbh my Grandad often only mentions things in passing. Like to Mum - there's wires coming out of my bedside lamp. X (carer) mentioned it the other week. Mum went off her nut - why didn't you TELL me?! You could have been electrocuted! And straight off to Argos to get a new one, all the while blaming herself for not checking every single appliance in Grandad's bungalow on her daily visits.

footfootfoot · 01-27-2009, 01:08 PM

I like this part: "[Bay City Manager Robert Belleman]... said Bay City Electric Light & Power's policies will be reviewed, but he didn't believe the city did anything wrong."

Maybe we need to rethink our definition of wrong and right.

glatt · 01-27-2009, 01:28 PM

It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

chrisinhouston · 01-27-2009, 01:38 PM

Our paper reported that those that found him also found his bill on the kitchen table with a large sum of cash paper clipped to it, so it seems he was going to pay it.

I wonder if he served with Patton's army when it went through Germany in the winter, he might have believed he was reliving that experience.

This article also quotes the medical person doing the autopsy as saying he died a slow and painful death but I think I've read that death by freezing is not so painful as you just slip off into a sort of coma.

TheMercenary · 01-27-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

I agree, regardless of what he did in the 40's.

lookout123 · 01-27-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

Why?

it is a business designed to make money. While this outcome is terrible, the reality is it is not the company's responsibility to provide anything for free. The man, family, friends, or neighbors should have been able to spot a problem and take the proper steps to prevent this.

TheMercenary · 01-27-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why?

it is a business designed to make money. While this outcome is terrible, the reality is it is not the company's responsibility to provide anything for free. The man, family, friends, or neighbors should have been able to spot a problem and take the proper steps to prevent this.

It could be a problem of population density and city living as well. I know in places that you tend to live close together more people are apt to just mind their own business, and most want you to stay out of it. And then there is the assumption that someone else is always doing the thing that you considered doing yourself, like checking in on the old guy from time to time.

glatt · 01-27-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why?

Utilities are not your standard business. They get special treatment. They have their wires all over land that they do not own. They are permitted a virtual monopoly to provide power (or gas) in a given area. They get that special treatment because they provide a critical service.

It should be part of the deal they have with us that they follow certain rules before turning off service for lack of payment.

If you are a landlord (and you know this) you have to follow certain rules before you evict someone. Why should it be any different for turning off someone's power when it's below freezing?

lookout123 · 01-27-2009, 02:07 PM

How many months can you go without being shut off up there? In Arizona you can go a bit over 90 days before they put the warning tag on your door. The bright red 5 x 11 tag says "Please contact us to make arrangements and avoid loss of power". If there is no contact within a week the power is cut. It isn't a surprise when things get shut off.

Beestie · 01-29-2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

They didn't pull the plug. They installed a device at the meter which cuts the power off if the usage exceeds a certain rate. The resident is able to go to the device and turn it back on immediately - just like a breaker. Apparently, there were 61 such devices in service at the time Mr. Schur died. All 61 have subsequently been removed.

Also interesting is that the Michigan Public Service Commission does not allow electric service to be disconnected at all between Nov 1 and April 1 for any reason. However, municipal utility companies are not subject to this regulation. Perhaps that will change now.

While this is indeed tragic, I think the lynch mob mentality being directed at the power company is a bit over the top.

Shawnee123 · 01-27-2009, 01:38 PM

I agree. Can't a little humanity remain, even if it is business?

Shawnee123 · 01-27-2009, 01:42 PM

Just...humanity?

lookout123 · 01-27-2009, 01:45 PM

Then where should we set the line cutoff line for those unable to pay and those unwilling to pay?

dmg1969 · 01-27-2009, 01:46 PM

I could be mistaken, but I believe PA has a law against utilities being shut off if there are children in the home. I know it doesn't apply in this case and it's a different state, but the arguement can be made...if so for children, why not for seniors. He was 93 for Christ's sake!

Edit: I believe the PA law is if there are children in the home AND it is winter. Should have been more clear.

01-27-2009, 12:49 PM	#1
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	93 Year Old WWII Vet Freezes to Death at Home... after his electric use was limited by the power company due to an unpaid balance. How sick is this? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/...llYXItb2xkZg-- __________________ Void where prohibited. Your results may vary. Not intended for resale. Do not remove tag. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

01-27-2009, 01:08 PM	#3
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	I like this part: "[Bay City Manager Robert Belleman]... said Bay City Electric Light & Power's policies will be reviewed, but he didn't believe the city did anything wrong." Maybe we need to rethink our definition of wrong and right. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

01-27-2009, 02:07 PM	#10
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	How many months can you go without being shut off up there? In Arizona you can go a bit over 90 days before they put the warning tag on your door. The bright red 5 x 11 tag says "Please contact us to make arrangements and avoid loss of power". If there is no contact within a week the power is cut. It isn't a surprise when things get shut off. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

01-27-2009, 01:38 PM	#12
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	I agree. Can't a little humanity remain, even if it is business? __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

01-27-2009, 01:42 PM	#13
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Just...humanity? __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

01-27-2009, 01:28 PM	#4
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	It should be against the law for a utility to pull the plug on a customer for unpaid bills if the temperature is below freezing. Cut him off in the spring.

01-27-2009, 01:38 PM	#5
chrisinhouston Professor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,857	Our paper reported that those that found him also found his bill on the kitchen table with a large sum of cash paper clipped to it, so it seems he was going to pay it. I wonder if he served with Patton's army when it went through Germany in the winter, he might have believed he was reliving that experience. This article also quotes the medical person doing the autopsy as saying he died a slow and painful death but I think I've read that death by freezing is not so painful as you just slip off into a sort of coma.

01-27-2009, 01:45 PM	#14
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	Then where should we set the line cutoff line for those unable to pay and those unwilling to pay? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

01-27-2009, 01:46 PM	#15
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	I could be mistaken, but I believe PA has a law against utilities being shut off if there are children in the home. I know it doesn't apply in this case and it's a different state, but the arguement can be made...if so for children, why not for seniors. He was 93 for Christ's sake! Edit: I believe the PA law is if there are children in the home AND it is winter. Should have been more clear. __________________ Void where prohibited. Your results may vary. Not intended for resale. Do not remove tag. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

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