Dutch Ban Burkas

Lookout , I am a Christian , and I know my Bible . I feel fortunate in that I can box and fence with any lunatic fringe Christian . The only people I can't beat are the Jesuits .
xoxoxo Bruce , it would be hard to be more British than I . I speak the ancient Celtic language of the British Isles through my father , and our ancestors who went before .

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I'd be pretty pissed off if our government passed such a legislation because I don't believe that people wearing Burka's are trying to force me to be Muslim. They're practicing the beliefs of their culture.

Not the point at all. There are a few problems with burkas, some of them may be red herrings. One is the security risk. Can conceal stuff (bombs?) under them. Even if that hasn't / won't happen that doesn't mean the citizens don't fear it. So banning them MIGHT make the citizens FEEL safer. Another is the isolation factor. Intentional or not if you're completly covered you have a literal veil around you, keeping you from interaction. Not great when the goal of immigration is to integrate a person in society. Then of course there are other slippery slope issues.

Banning "religions" is not altogether unheard of either. I think Germany has one against scientology. So there are limits to religious freedom too. I think the US has them too. Last I knew I couldn't sacrifice babies to my god

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by Ibram

There is no such thing as too much freedom when it does not hurt others.

To me, this (the above) is the bottom line.

BUT . . . I'm in the good 'ole USofA where that line of reasoning has been drummed into my head.

I agree, though, that immigrants have a choice about where they immigrate and if they don't like the laws, don't move there.

Each country has a right to set a standard for what it believes is acceptable and what is not.

In this case, though, it just stands to reason that there are many important reasons to be able to identify individuals. I mean, how can you check someone's ID if they are in burka? Or, how do you know that they aren't using someone else's ID to buy that restricted item?

I realize you are talking about religious suppression and that is definitely a concern, but, you know, those Scandinavians are much more into homegeneity than we are.

(Sorry, I'm married to a Swede.)

[DanaC]

Dana is a Muslim who lives in Britain . There is no such thing as a British Muslim

WTF? I am a white, English, atheist. When have I ever said I am a Moslem? You claim to be an educated European woman, yet you persist in misreading everything I have ever written. For the last time: My Dad was born in India, to English parents and then moved back to England when he was an adolescent. His family (my family) went over to India with the British East India company in about 1833, where they became a part of the Raj. They were devout catholics.

Mum, meanwhile, was a working class girl born in Post-war Salford, to a catholic father and protestant mother.

I was brought up Church of England, in a mostly secular household and decided at the age of 13 that I was an atheist.

Buddog, are you wilfully stupid to be annoying, or are you actually thick as pigshit? It's kind of hard to tell on a forum, but I am dying to know.

You who don't even live in Britain, have the audacity to tell me, a native born, still resident and deeply patriotic English woman that you more fully represent british views than I do? Fuck you.

Now.....as i said before, IF I was 'an asian' as you described me before, or a 'moslem' as you now describe me, I would find you deeply insulting, ignorant and racist. Is that then the true 'British' way?

Fucking welsh wizards, thank God we kicked your ass and sent you crying home for Arthur.

[Ibby]

Man, I was WAITING for someone to mention that. I was too busy fucking with the theme of the posts, not the details, but your fucking title is Militant Atheist... I mean, jeez!

[DanaC]

Okay, I just read back my post and realised she's done it again: riled me to the point of insensibility. I dare say my good friend Alyn would be ever so slightly appalled by the last sentence in that post:P

As explanation, and to somewhat mitigate the sentiment, I would point out that he persistently calls me a German because of my (Buddog, take note) obvious Saxon looks; whilst I generally insult him by calling him a Welsh Wizard, because of his long hair and love of Arthurian legend.

Right, a slightly less emotional post:

Buddog, this is the last time I will post to you directly. I abhor everything you stand for and are. You claim Britishness, yet you are wholly removed from the British values that I, and most of the inhabitants of this Island, hold dear. You insult and demean Moslems, regardless of their contribution to Britain. I have a colleague on the council who is a devout Moslem, a traditional Moslem, and also a deeply intelligent historian, whose generosity is incalculable and who spends most of his free time, caring for his invalid (and dying) wife. He's also very funny and routinely makes me laugh in council meetings by whispering shit to me about the Tory councillors when they are speaking. He has been a member of the Labour party, and a Councillor for over twenty years and during that time has done more for the people of our borough than i could ever hope to do. When the ruling party was seeking to close satellite-libraries, the fight against closures was led, very vocally, by this Moslem councillor. None of the proposed closures would have affected his ward, they were primarily based in poor semi-urban and almost wholly white areas. Yet, he fought a solid fight on behalf of those residents for whom the libraries were so important. How dare you, who contribute nothing to the British people, and whose very Britishness is born of vicarious association, condemn someone whose contribution is real and recognised.

Every word you write on this forum shows you to be a racist, anti-human thug. You debase what it is to be British, you debase what it is to be European and I am absolutely sure that my friend Alyn, who has fought all his life against people like you, would consider that you debase what it is to be Welsh.

You are beneath contempt.

[DanaC]

Man, I was WAITING for someone to mention that. I was too busy fucking with the theme of the posts, not the details, but your fucking title is Militant Atheist... I mean, jeez!

*Chuckles*. Buddog decided long ago that I was neither English, caucasian nor atheist. I am not entirely sure why. Not that people thinking I am brown-skinned would particularly bother me, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just so ridiculously far from reality that it paints me as something I am not....and that bothers me. Frankly I am more insulted that she thinks me religious. I wuold have thought I had made it abundantly clear on these forums where I stand on matters of faith :P Not that I object other people being religious of course, but again, it's so far from reality as to be ridiculous and paints me as something I am not.

[Ibby]

Buddug, after talking to you, its no wonder some people have such a low opinion of you Brits.

(I say this as a staunch Anglophile, I love almost all things british... except scum like you.)

[DanaC]

Buddug, after talking to you, its no wonder some people have such a low opinion of you Brits.

Aheh. I'd give her about fifteen minutes in Bolton and she'd be running from a lynch mob:P

[Sundae]

I ignored buddug ages ago, so am not interested in her inaccurate ramblings.

Despite my pro-Muslim stance I support the actions of the Dutch Government. The message it sends to me is that this is a liberal country, but it is a Western country and that people who live in the Netherlands are required to conform to the current social norms.

I behave according to the legal, social and religious (where applicable) norms of the countries I go to on holiday. I would be just as scrupulous - if not more so - if I was emigrating somewhere.

If recent emigres, or daughters of Dutch Muslims choose to make an outward statement about their religion, then one of the choices they make is not to leave home. If a woman is modest enough that she is uncomfortable with any man seeing her face then she has to consider whether she is living in the right country.

I - who hate the heat - wouldn't consider moving somewhere like Miami. My caucasion British co-worker is considering emigrating to Australia because she hates the fact England is cold, grey & gloomy. I don't think so personally, but good for her.

[DanaC]

I disagree with you Sundae, but I also can see your point. I have a slightly different take on the issue, but I often find myself in the minority with this view :P Even (especially?) amongst my left-wing, feminist comrades.

[DanaC]

Buddog has now been banned. I am shamefaced that I allowed her to get under my skin :P Her post to Ibram reveals her, even to me who is a little dense on these things, as a troll.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I disagree with you Sundae, but I also can see your point. I have a slightly different take on the issue, but I often find myself in the minority with this view :P Even (especially?) amongst my left-wing, feminist comrades.

It is quite a cunumdrum, what anti-freedom legislation will people support to protect freedom? It goes right to the heart of what we value. It does, unfortunately, show a lack of confidence in the power of individual liberty to break down oppresive cultural norms.

[DanaC]

That's an excellent point Griff.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You're blaming us for the trouble with immigrants going on in Germany, France, England, Spain, etc?
You're right about the odds of a terrorist coming to get you, but the problem of immigrants not assimilating is ongoing. It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.

The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get.

Wow this thread has exploded! Not for the good unfortunately.

Personally I don't think making such a fuz about 50 Burkas is worth while all the (international) attention. The suggestion came from a one-man party who is infamous for his Islamphobia.

I don't think Islam terrorism is about to take over the Western world. What we see is a backroom war produced by some fundamentalists which will eventually will fade away. Yes, probably there will be some more attacks like London, Madrid, but these are only incidents. Unfortunately some Western politician USE this phenomenon to stay in power and that's the whole problem. The more attention you give to this jihad the more popular it becomes. and you only keep it alive for longer.

International Islam terrorism should be fought where it ought to be: in the shadow of every days life by special forces. There was a big chance in Afghanistan but unfortunately the US blew it and is now reaping the bitter fruits.

Eventually the Western style democracy will survive in the world by Globalisation but only when it shows that it is a peaceful alternative. Now most Islam people think that the West is only there to concur their countries and use same methods like Abu Ghraib.

What the Pentagon is doing actually should have been done (and is done in many countries) by Microsoft, McDonalds, Starbucks.

Funny enough one of the first Islam country I foresee a democracy to rise is Iran...