Ending God's Tax Exempt Status

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Bullshit, with free everything and open borders we'd be deluged with humanity from all over the world, not just the Americas.

Free what? Last I checked, nothing I have received so far has been 'free.' Looking at the substantial tax deduction on my paycheck, I'm paying for all the government programs I use, and I pay for my health-life-car-property insurance, food, rent, electricity... pretty much everything else myself. In fact, the only things I can think of that I've received 'for free' have been my first semester in college from my parents (still paying the rest of those!) and various gifts from friends.

Immigrants as a whole don't show up, walk into a welfare office and get a check. They work and they PAY for the services they use via taxes. This concept that people who immigrate are freeloaders really frustrates me. They're not. And the simple fact is, there's absolutely no logical reason to deny them access to the thing that we love so very much:money and freedom to spend it. Because frankly, it won't cost us anything.

And yes, the trillions of dollars we've spent on our military could fund just about every civil project we can fathom. I don't think people realize just how much we spend on our standing army.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by queequeger
Aha! If we did things my preferred method (i.e. northern european model of social capitalism) the government could fill that role and we'd not have to worry about the people helping the needy trying to convert for their religion.

Free what? Last I checked, nothing I have received so far has been 'free.' Looking at the substantial tax deduction on my paycheck, I'm paying for all the government programs I use, and I pay for my health-life-car-property insurance, food, rent, electricity... pretty much everything else myself.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Well, if you want the US to head for your utopia.......... then the first thing to do is secure the damn borders or we'd be broke (us & US) in no time.

What the hell do you think would happen to those "northern european" countries with a sudden 20, 30, 40% increase in population? I can tell you, they'd become third world nations pretty damn quick.

[queequeger]

Ok, I've dug for about 20 minutes looking for specific numbers on how many people apply for visas every year. I found one as low as 3 million (post 9/11) and I found one as high as 13 million. Let's cut it even and say it's 10 million who apply. Even if we allow every last on in, which I'm not proposing (probably set a limit at 8 million a year and see where that gets us, more if necessary later), that's a 3% rise. Let's consider that about half of those are re-applications (which is likely more, as we only allow .6 - 1.2 million in each year, depending). After a year or two, the number would drop significantly.

In a country with a population of 300 million people, where's this 40% going to come from?

If the ENTIRE COUNTRY OF MEXICO (100 million strong) immigrated into our country, our population would rise by about 30%...

Wikipedia has some wonderful stats on US immigration throughout the ages... did you know that in 1830 the US population was about 17 million? How about the fact that 800 thousand foreign born immigrants crossed our borders over a decade, accounting for a 4.7% increase in our population? The following decade, 2.2 million immigrated, accounting for a ~10% increase in population size.

By my guesstimation, the US allowing 30 million people into the country over the next decade would be about equivelent. Right?

Remind me what catastrophic economic event occured around 1850. I've used VERY high extimates to avoid argument where possible, so that if we allow that old fashioned hubris that 'everyone on the globe wants to live here!' it can be shown that there will be no great collapse of the super power. Our economy is a draft horse, and can bring impressive power to bear when need be. How about we stop being so selfish, and instead of increasing our GDP 4-5 % annually, we can only increase by about 3% for a few years? Dear god, it's the end of the world.

:gasp: man that was a long winded retort. I just blew my whole lunch!

[xoxoxoBruce]

You were so busy retorting you forgot to read.
I said if we move toward your ideal of a "northern european model of social capitalism" where the state provides for all in need, and throw open the borders to any and all, we'd be overwhelmed and broke in short order.

If you don't think open borders would produce more than 100 million immigrants, your sadly out of the loop. The 10 million that can both afford to apply AND think that have the remotest possibility of making it, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to people that would move here, given their druthers.

If you don't think 100 million plus, un, and semi, skilled workers would fuck this country up, you're very naive. Sure some would be skilled or professionals, but those jobs would fill up quickly and those people would already be better off than most, where they are now. So those people would slow to a trickle quickly. The deluge would be people with nothing... and nothing to lose.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If you don't think open borders would produce more than 100 million immigrants, your sadly out of the loop. The 10 million that can both afford to apply AND think that have the remotest possibility of making it, is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to people that would move here, given their druthers.

If you don't think 100 million plus, un, and semi, skilled workers would fuck this country up, you're very naive. Sure some would be skilled or professionals, but those jobs would fill up quickly and those people would already be better off than most, where they are now. So those people would slow to a trickle quickly. The deluge would be people with nothing... and nothing to lose.

This sounds very dramatic and all, but...

Realistically, over what period of time would 100 million immigrants cross the open borders, if we had them? Presently, about 400,000 arrive legally per year, and it's estimated that about 1 million cross or try to cross illegally per year.

Many people come here because there is work available. If the available work dries up, the incentive is reduced. And you forget that many immigrants start their own businesses.

[tw]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Many people come here because there is work available. If the available work dries up, the incentive is reduced.

Many immigrants also leave because living in America is so tough. Despite many who assume we make it easy, the reality is many return home because America has so support services.

I am specifically thinking of two immigrants who both went home. Making it as an immigrant in America is not easy - in direct contradiction to the many who assume they live fat and happy on our social services.

I am struck not only by the attitude of so many immigrants to work. I am also struck by how better educated so many are compared to their American peers. I am struck by how so many Americans know things - and yet never bother to get an education.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If the only obstacle was the cost of transportation, I think it would be pretty fast. And with queequeger's "northern european model of social capitalism" in place, they wouldn't have to worry about work being available.

[bluecuracao]

As it is now, transportation is a huge obstacle for many.

[queequeger]

Bruce, you're still operating under the assumption that the northern european model is some sort of welfare system that passes out checks and takes nothing. Yes, they provide many services, but they tax very high rates as well. Immigrants WORK. Immigrants PAY TAXES. They do NOT GET ANYTHING FOR FREE. If you can point out something that a large number of immigrants who don't pay taxes use, please do. Any one social service will do.

And no, there would not be 100 million people coming across our borders in a few years. I don't know if you realize this, but while we still have a reputation of being the 'land of opportunity,' we also have a reputation of being the land severe assholes who are in love with punishment. Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, it's held by a great number of people from all over the globe. Think about it. ~10 million people choose to try immigration to the US... out of 5 billion (maybe it's 6 or so).

This level of hubris that is required to honestly believe that the rest of the planet hates where they are and loves where we are is ridiculous. Go to just about any country in the world and ask some locals. They love their cultures, they love their families, and they love their homelands just like we do. Giving up everything you've known in search of better living is a priority for some, but not nearly as many as you'd think.

[lumberjim]

this is a favorite topic of yours, quee? the immigrant thing?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Bruce, you're still operating under the assumption that the northern european model is some sort of welfare system that passes out checks and takes nothing.

Bullshit I know exactly how it works.

Yes, they provide many services, but they tax very high rates as well. Immigrants WORK. Immigrants PAY TAXES. They do NOT GET ANYTHING FOR FREE.

They do if they are not working. The services don't stop when there are no jobs.

If you can point out something that a large number of immigrants who don't pay taxes use, please do. Any one social service will do.

Again, fucking read what I said. IF we move to a northern european model AND we throw open the borders, we will be broke.

And no, there would not be 100 million people coming across our borders in a few years. I don't know if you realize this, but while we still have a reputation of being the 'land of opportunity,' we also have a reputation of being the land severe assholes who are in love with punishment. Whether you agree with this sentiment or not, it's held by a great number of people from all over the globe.

You're buying into the left wing guilt trip.

Think about it. ~10 million people choose to try immigration to the US... out of 5 billion (maybe it's 6 or so).

Yes, 10 million have the wealth and confidence to give it a shot. When it takes less wealth and no confidence, 100 million is easily plausible.

This level of hubris that is required to honestly believe that the rest of the planet hates where they are and loves where we are is ridiculous. Go to just about any country in the world and ask some locals. They love their cultures, they love their families, and they love their homelands just like we do. Giving up everything you've known in search of better living is a priority for some, but not nearly as many as you'd think.

Yet 10 million of these happy campers face almost insurmountable odds to try it every year. Your case doesn't hold water.

[DanaC]

They do if they are not working. The services don't stop when there are no jobs.

Actually in the UK people who receive income support or unemployment benefit pay a nominal amount of tax on those benefits and also their 'stamp' (national insurance).

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by queequeger

I'm paying for all the government programs I use,

Are you on Medicaid? I'm willing to bet you're actually paying for government programs you don't use. And I've known several people on those programs: tax incentives are such (especially for those with children) that if they have jobs that withdraw taxes in the first place, they get 100% (or more, believe it or not, just ask a low-income single parent) of their taxes back in their refund check. So they are not paying for the services they receive (you are, as we established.) Now, what if there were millions more of people like them, and only a couple of hundred thousand more of people like you? Even if the majority of the disadvantaged embrace the American dream and rapidly climb the social ladder, we are still talking about a major deficit for at least a decade or two.

Originally Posted by queequeger

If you can point out something that a large number of immigrants who don't pay taxes use, please do. Any one social service will do.

Hospital ERs. People with no insurance (and no Medicaid because they are undocumented) use ERs like general clinics. I imagine the problem is not nearly so visible in Georgia. Come visit Texas sometime.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by queequeger

If you can point out something that a large number of immigrants who don't pay taxes use, please do. Any one social service will do.

As Clodfobble said, hospital ERs. Also public schools. There are districts in Texas (and, most likely, in other states) that are overwhelmed by non-English speaking illegal immigrant children/families. Every child has access to the public school system regardless of whether the parents are paying taxes.

[queequeger]

Hehe, yeah lumberjim this is deffo one of my favorites.

You're buying into the left wing guilt trip.

No, I'm 'buying into' international opinion polls. I'm 'buying into' the news.

Yes, 10 million have the wealth and confidence to give it a shot. When it takes less wealth and no confidence, 100 million is easily plausible.

Please, support your claim. 10 million was a number (a high number) assumed based on the average number of people that was estimated applied. If you just assume that 'only those that really really think they can make it' applied, why not just pull any number out of your hat? How about there are 500 million that would apply if we opened our borders? How about a billion? I bet the entire population of China would apply.

Yet 10 million of these happy campers face almost insurmountable odds to try it every year. Your case doesn't hold water.

My argument that most people like where they live doesn't hold water? Based on the fact that every year nearly .002% of the globe applies for their stake in the greatest place on the planet? I can see how I was wrong to think they didn't have penis envy.

And to the others, In my zealousness I overstepped in my argument and have to retreat a bit. My apologies. There are social services that an unworking immigrant can use, and there are services that I don't use that I pay for. It's part of the social contract we have. What happens is I pay for Medicaid, knowing that when I DO need it, many workers younger than I will willingly pay for it. And if I never need it, I'm happy to pay so others can use it. Right now, about 13 percent of the country is enrolled in Medicaid whereas most of those are working pay. So even if one in ten immigrants do fit into that lazy stereotype (which they don't), we still maintain the balance.

And jobs aren't some physical commodity. The more people are in an economy, the more jobs there are. More immigrants > more workers > more consumers > more jobs > more immigrants > ad nauseum. We've gone from a country of 20 million (in 1850) to 300 million. And so far, the number of immigrants has yet to cripple our economy.

If we instantly legalized all of the immigrants in our country now, they would get the same services they have now, AND pay taxes (and be susceptible to minimum wage laws... another plus!)
Every argument so far is not based off the concept that immigrants are good working people, but we just can't afford it. The argument I've seen is that they are conniving sneaky lazy people trying to take advantage of us. I need someone to show me this is true for me to continue, otherwise my every argument will be met by 'but they're lazy!'

Unless someone can show me otherwise, I still stand by the opinion that 99% of this planet is comprised of good people, and that includes every country. I just can't believe that the thought that goes through an immigrant's head is "I'm going to move to America and live off of the citizens there. They give away free shit!" In fact, what they really think is, "I'm going to move to America and live off the job I get there. They have a good economy that I can be a part of."

If you're not acting out of love, don't act at all. So, even if they DO count as a 'burden' on our economy, If I have to pay some extra taxes to support some millions of people having a better life, and doing what they find most enjoyable... well shucks I guess I'll just wait to buy that TV that costs the same as some people's yearly salary.