Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[Catwoman]

The trouble with America.

She is truly beautiful. She boasts some of the most outstanding areas of natural beauty in the world. She has produced some of the most intelligent, prosperous and significant people in history.

But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.

The European perception of America could accurately be described as hostile; at best ambivalent. I would like to explain why I think this opinion exists.

Most* people's perception of America is founded on a) media reportage; b) international events and c) Americans they have come into contact with (most likely as tourists). I am sure you will agree this is how most* Americans assimilate an opinion about Britain or any other country.

* I exclude those who have travelled extensively to the country in question.

Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick. It leaves that lasting, bitter taste of style over substance, something that we self-deprecating Brits find hard to digest. Of course, we are influenced by our own media and its portrayal of America. I have to say it is often unashamedly biased, with subversive presenters often using the American stereotype to parody key American figures. You might consider this unfair, but these stereotypes truly are made to fit. Or made to measure, as you might say.

International events speak for themselves. Countless invasions, occupations, wars. Economically, America is the 'big bully' of the international community. 'Price wars' is an American concept. It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty. I needn't mention the points of conflict surrounding the recent war.

American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture. They see England as 'cute' and 'quaint' and are fascinated by a history they have never known for themselves. If only they could package it up in a cute little box and take it away with them.

Of course, it would be completely unfair to judge a country by merit of its tourists. If Britain were judged on its tourists, international perception would probably include the words 'ignorant', 'indecent', 'rowdy' and 'uncultured'.

And they would be quite right. In general, the Great British populace are an ignorant bunch, leading soundbite lives based on instant gratification with their indiscriminate consumption of food, 'culture' and politics. Is it fair to say this is representative of how this country is run and permit others to make judgements based on our behaviour? Of course it is! Human beings have a choice. Their behaviour abroad is no less indicative of their mindset as their actions at home.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been. And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof). The thing is, America is incredibly insecure. By nature of it being the biggest power in our modern world, it is constantly faced with the threat of a fall. And it's a long way from the top, as any befallen athlete, actor or CEO will tell you. There will always be another country threatening a bigger gun, more WMD's, more troops, more... whatever. It is America's duty to stay on top of this and ensure that no one else rivals their pole position. America is the best country in the world, and don't you forget it.

In my assessment of America I do not implicitly condone, flatter or otherwise 'big up' my own country or any other. This is not an argument of moral, financial or political superiority. It would be nice to be able to express a critique of a person, institution or country without fear of an emotional reaction, and a lot of this debate has been reaction, not response.

It is also worth mentioning that mine, jag's, or anyone else's opinion about the States is not a detraction from people's individual or personal 'goodness'. There are many lovely people in America as there are in this country, or anywhere else. We are merely reviewing the overriding sentiment. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, it is often very difficult to usurp some kind of honest self-reflection in most American people, and I include a couple of my American friends in this assessment. One girl I have known for two years still gets very protective of her country, and will not listen to balanced criticism, even when I know she agrees. It is as if there is a guilt associated with self-deprecation - like it demonstrates betrayal or weakness - when in fact it belies strength.

The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.

And for any of you tempted to respond to this with some ill thought-out, personally insulting or otherwise retaliatory one-liner, I'll leave you with the best quote I've seen in the Cellar for ages:

Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit. © Jaguar

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

intolerably slick

Cat, this section bapped the lightbulb in my head on, and especially those words. It's a lovely insight, well said.

There is a deep cultural problem here, but the thing is, it's not really American so much as it is industrial/globalization related.

A hundred and fifty years ago, you bought a pen. It was a fountain pen, and it was individually crafted from its component parts by another human being, probably working alone. It cost 100 hours of your salary to buy this pen, but the pen was a beautiful thing.

Yesterday, you bought a pen. It cost you 5 minutes of your salary to buy this pen. It is much better and longer lasting than the pen of 150 years ago. The ink doesn't need to be bought separately. The ink writes on ten times as many surfaces as the pen of 150 years ago. It will last you for a year, after which you'll use another 5 minutes of salary to buy one exactly like it.

And that's the problem: it'll be exactly like it. It's still a pen, better in almost every single way... except one: mass-created by machine, not carefully created by an artisan, this pen has no soul. It's an empty shell of a pen, and now the meaning of what a pen really is, changes in ways we might not like.

Today's pen, better in every way... except that it has no soul. It is intolerably slick. And when we use it, we lose a little soul ourselves. But the fact that it's better in every other way means that its acceptance, its purchase, its use is inevitably going to take over.

And as a side effect, the working classes will have pens of their own.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.

I've heard Winston Churchhill was happy in a way to see the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. It's said that he believed that was the point at which the US would really get serious about Germany. Until then the US had stayed out of it. Not really our battle.

And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof).

I was kinda waiting for the point where the Switzerland fans would come up against any other Europeans in the house.

The thing is, America is incredibly insecure.

For your marvelous insights, here is the only place I see you slip. Americans are not insecure whatsoever. We are absolutely convinced that we are the biggest, baddest motherfuckers on the planet. The thing that pisses us off the most is that you forget it. If you knock down our tallest fucking tower, the only thing you'll find ten years later is that we've built a bigger, badder fucking tower to replace it, and we don't really care if you think we're whipping out our big dicks or flipping you the bird.

From outside our culture I'm sure much of that is appalling. From inside it, I know I am often appalled. But it does not come from insecurity.

The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.

It's the strongest, therefore it has further to fall. But it's really only vulnerable to fear. Take 9/11 as an example. What happens if you obliterate ten blocks of infrastructure in the financial district of the most important city in the country? Well the financial folks have always planned for massive failure, and many of the worst-hit were up and running the next day with backup networks in other parts of the country. But the financial effect of people not traveling, not hiring, not buying, etc. because of fear was pretty bad.

The truth is, the world has much more to fear from the fall of America than from its continued strength. For example, the US is responsible for the security of most of the world's major sealanes where oil is shipped. The entire world benefits. That's military overstretch.

The other truth is, as the strongest, we automatically become the target. We automatically become the scapegoat. I for one hate the notion of the US being the world's police force. But we have a very different responsibility if we are targets and/or scapegoats.

edited to add final paragraph sorry

[russotto]

Originally Posted by Catwoman

But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.

America's very foundation is war, a nasty, brutal war known as the American Revolution. But Europe can hardly reasonably hold that against us without forgetting its own history.

Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick.

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

'Price wars' is an American concept.

A price war is when competitors engage in a competition for customers by lowering prices. This is a problem?

It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty.

Ahh, yes, the "America is responsible for all the troubles of the world" theory. As for Free Trade Zones, seems to me the largest one is in Europe.

American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture.

Eh? They're tourists. On vacation for a week or two, maybe a month at the outside, how are they to "involve themselves in the local culture"? As for the rest, much of that is sampling bias; the assholes tend to be noticed. Not that there's any shortage of obnoxious Americans, granted.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been.

Which is why the British needed to forge a telegram to get the US into WWI, which is why the US didn't enter WWII until attacked, which is why the US made no moves against the Taliban until attacked by their associates, etc. Oh, sure, you can find times (putting Iraq aside for the moment) where the US has acted in a trigger-happy manner (Grenada, the Spanish-American War, Vietnam -- though note in the last two cases a provocation was invented to get the American public's support), but what you call lack of euphemism is rather ridiculous overstatement.

[warch]

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

as are Fox and Films.

[Beestie]

jag, you are free to hate America all you want. I will not be drawn into the no-win situation of providing you with a never-ending list of America's accomplishments and contributions (and there are many) to make the world a better place in hopes of gaining your approval. I have no intention of justifying myself or my country to you.

What has your country done to make the world a better place? Justify your place at the world table or is it only America that needs to prove itself. And why should our patriotism - our love for our own country - bother anyone? I'm not ashamed to love America and what it stands for and I grow weary of being constantly put on the defensive for who we are. Who we are (**smug patriotism alert**) is the most successful and prosperous nation in the history of this planet and we did it without any input or help from Europe. Where else can a refugee from a despot arrive with $20.00 and go on to run a Fortune 500 company? That type of success is commonplace here. America is and will continue to be the land of dreams - no European country can even come close to providing that kind of opportunity - unless you call living on the dole or paying 70% taxes an opportunity. Americans are the most productive, hard-working and un-lazy people on earth. And in what other country would a film that is harshly critical of itself and its leader be a major blockbuster? Americans are the FIRST to be self-critical - our entire history is centered on that type of freedom.

I will, however, admit to one of the points in your post - America spends too much of its time, money and blood in places that we shouldn't. We have far too many of our citizens buried in foreign soil. I don't think Americans should die to defend the citizens of other countries unless those countries would do the same for us. Is there a Frenchman on earth who would lay down his life for America? Or for France for that matter?

Your mind is made up and there is little I can do about that. I can make one suggestion, however, - tell the dumbasses in the restaurant you eat at to put up a sign - "We do not accept the Euro from fatass American tourists" - is that so hard to come up with?

[jaguar]

I don't really have a country so it's a little hard, some weeks I'm in the Uk, some in Switzerland, hell Australia on occasion.

The thing is though, no country really makes the world a better place, read the docterine of Enlightened Self Interest but most don't make quite as worse as the US does, that's the difference. Part of it is simply being the biggest fish in the pond at the moment, part sheer arrogance.

As for the rags to riches american dream stuff, if you can point out the 'no refugees are allowed to succeed' law on the books, please do, otherwise you have no point. Taxes may be higher but that's because we choose to have compassion on the poor rather than make healthcare more expensive for them than anyone else. Most successful state in history? Please. Try Rome.

Is there a frenchmen who would lay down his life for America? (now here is the point where I feel oddly jusitified in saying americans are ignorant of the world) Try most of Normandy, it's not just a beach in a history book, it's an entire region of France that still has strong links to the US, hell many villages laid down plaques in memory of 9/11. Of course then you do on to mention France, demonstrating not only your xenophobia but your arrogance as well. Heck many French troops are busy doing peacekeeping work in Africa. Might want to look into the origins of one of your national symbols as well.

It's interesting, this thread is bringing out the worst in everyone.

[jaguar]

Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here.

[wolf]

Yes, Jag. It must be tiresome to have to leave the villa and rub shoulders with the riff raff in the town below.

[jaguar]

You're right, I need to be more clear.

Think of it as a ratio thing. The number of good experiences to bad is a very poor ratio indeed.

When I come across any external projection of the US, may it be legal, political, military or trade, it's negative. When I come across Americans on the balance it tends to be negative, many I do get on with are varying degrees, embarassed by the state of affairs. I come across next to no good and a heck of a lot of bad. I look at what the biggest threats on the horizon are, DRM/Trusted Computing enforcement, large scale datamining and privicy invasion, further extensions of copyright and IP law to name but a few and they all are being pushed most heavily by the US. Who leads the world on the lawsuit mentality, what country has government supported faith based programs? Which western governmentis most blatantly influenced by big business? (Italy being a close second there) Hate might be a strong word but it's certainly correct a times, it simply has come to embody so many things I dislike. That's the crux.

[Undertoad]

Jag, of course the foreign policy of the 60s, 70s and 80s is different from the foreign policy of the 00s, but if anything it should serve as notice that things change. The US was reminded of that by finger-wagging French and Dartmouth professors who noted the US may not always be the super-power it is now. No, if trends continue as they are it will be a super-super-power, because US growth continues to outstrip Euro growth and the Japanese, Koreans, etc. are not far behind.

You'll have even more US tourists to deal with and by the way, one of the reasons they are what they are, is that our lower-middle classes are rich enough to travel halfway around the world on holidays. That's why the ugly American is the Euro stereotype, because during the 50s and 60s they all went to Paris on tours because they could afford to, and there were a LOT of them.

By the way, Americans include a lot of African-looking people and Mexican-looking people and Asian-looking people so don't forget them in the stereotypes. A huge number of us are non-white at this point (about a third or more) so you may not recognize us.

And by the way the number-one name for newborns in Amsterdam is "Mohammed" so you soon may not recognize Europeans either.

And there are only a quarter of the UKers than USers, but don't tell me a good number of them don't bellow for their Watney's and fish and chips in your presence.

[wolf]

I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.

I don't get those people, frankly. I've met and talked with a few. I still don't get them.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by wolf

I'm developing the impression that Jag (and possibly other Europeans, although I do hesitate to paint with so broad a brush) only really likes Americans who are embarrased about being American.

Bullseye.

[jaguar]

I really don't get your point UT. The growing ethnic diversity has bought both challanges and rewards everywhere, my old home, Australia, is incredibly multicultural, Melbourne has one of the biggest expat greek communities in the world, mixed in with huge Italian, Vietnamese, Chinese communities to boot. Hell the UK has a very high rate as well leading to the most excellent curry you ever will taste.

That said, beyond a bit of 'my country is better than your country so there', I still don't get your point.

[jaguar]

Well if you don't like a perspective you're unlikely to have the easiest of relationships with it's proponants are you?

[Undertoad]

My point is I love you like a brother, man, don't ever change.

(Just so we're clear on this)