Rice urges calm, calls Koran desecration abhorrent

[Undertoad]

Here's another thing. If humiliation is torture, when we engage Arabic cultures with cultural sensitivity we should not include women or Jews in our military. If we defeat them with the help of women or Jews, that would ultimately be very humiliating to them. (Well, the fundamentalists anyway.)

[wolf]

Under that logic we just can't fight them at all then ... unless we put up a force of only Muslim fighters, which we can't do because it would be discriminatory.

Okay. They win.

Oh wait ... they win just so long as people keep thinking this way ... I get it.

[Happy Monkey]

1) Prisoners have different rules than battlefield foes. You can't toss a grenade at prisoners, or spray them with a machine gun either.

2) Female or Jewish soldiers are incidental. Torture is personal.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Where can I find this definition you speak of?

The original defintion of torture was about 1948. I believe it was defined in support of the original Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In later versions, the definition was refined to be more explicit. I believe there may have been up to four revisions of that Universal Declaration. US laws may have also further defined torture in order to make it illegal.

However Gonzales, to redefine torture, ignored later US signed treaties and worked to circumvent US laws so that he could use a simplified 1948 definition for his reinterpretation. Part of that process was to get anyone captured in Afghaistan or suspected of being Al Qaeda to be 'not a prisoner of war' so they could be tortured, denied basic human rights, et al.

What was even considered torture was redefined by Gonzales. For example, tie a man's arms behind his back, then hang him from the ceiling by those wrists. If this did not permanently damage an organ, then it was not torture.

If the man's skin was painfully pealed from his body AND if the skin eventually grew back, then that too was not torture. No permanent organ damage.

Ironically, the only reason we know about this is because the military Jag Corp has been strongly united against what has been happening in Gitmoized locations. Had the Military Jag corp not gone to the Supreme Court, then much of this ongoing torture in 2002 and 2003 would never have been exposed.

Numerous ways that torture is declared illegal is found in many treaties and American laws - some that apply even though they don't specifically mention torture. Instead an article might define as illegal any actions that degrade a human. Those other provisions also mean torture would be illegal.

I believe it was an interview with Jag lawyers who initially laid this all out. They demonstrated why torture as America now practices it was illegal for reason after reason. I hit a saturation point and simply could not keep up with the so many points presented by this Jag lawyer. Even in his Senate confirmation hearing, the fact that Gonzales did rewrite the definition of torture was not disputed. I recall even an "ends justifies the means" answer was provided to justify 'moving of this line'.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I mean prison rape has been the subject of so many sitcom and standup bits for twenty years that the subject is actually hack and... a spot of menstrual blood to try to get info out of a terrorist and it's the end of the world to you guys.

Hypocrisy.

Well, in Graterford, if the threat of rape exists, then the prison will move the threatened prisoner. The 'powers that be' do whatever they can to protect prisoners.

In Abu Ghriad, where most prisoners are innocent and were never even accused in a court of law, the prison guards and intelligent agents were the "rapists". The 'powers that be' do the attacking. Who is left to try to protect the prisoner?

Hypocracy is one simply forgetting who is doing the "raping". It was called Gitmoize. It was authorized in the highest levels of the American government. A so called 'moral' administration.

It was a good point, UT. It demonstrates how Ruch Limbaugh types can so easily distort facts with half truths.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The koran problem can be solved by removing all korans from Gitmo.

Which left me wondering if indeed providing Korans were done as an intended part of a torture process. I doubt it. But considering they would even use fake menstrual blood, well, these interrogators were that devious.

And yes, we even had spy prisoners imbedded with the prisoners. At least one spy finally had to request 'reassignment'. In that interview, even he admitted he could not longer withstand pressure after what I believe was eight months. It would also explain the so many rumored suicide attempts.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If humiliation is illegal, we'll have to close all the public schools in this country.
I'm having a hard time grasping the outrage over humiliation or embarrassment, without physical harm. Permanent organ damage falls a little short of covering some things that I'd consider torture, but some of the claims sound silly.
I guess I'd is key to how anyone views these claims. I guess it's OK if it's not happening to anyone I know.