Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son

[DanaC]

Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.

[jester]

this truly is a heinous crime - i don't know what your laws are concerning juveniles - my opinion would be to hold them in a facility for their age and when they become "adult" age - prosecute them as such. i know some people like to claim "products of their surroundings", but they still had a choice to make. it was the wrong choice.

[Hime]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.

Agreed 100%. We try juveniles differently for a reason, and it's not because kids never do terrible things.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Hime

Agreed 100%. We try juveniles differently for a reason, and it's not because kids never do terrible things.

Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??

[Flint]

Originally Posted by yesman065

You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??

No, but you know what they say: You can't make an omelet without raping some eggs.

[smurfalicious]

Originally Posted by Flint

No, but you know what they say: You can't make an omelet without raping some eggs.

wow.

nice edit.

[Shawnee123]

Hime, I see a lot of what you are saying, but a couple points:

Stealing from a cookie jar, or smoking pot, are worlds apart in terms of criminality from brutal rape, attacking with chemicals, and forcing incest.

The incidents that occurred may or may not be a result of "bad parenting" (which itself even sounds too nice a term) but the offenses are atrocities.

Also, I would like to point out that the original question was "should these kiddies be tried as adults?" Though I think yes, and others think no...the actual punishment is not the debate. I've never been in a juvy or adult prison (except when I visited Paris) so I don't know how much difference, if any, there might be in rehabilitative actions between the two.

Also, does anyone know: if a juvy is tried as an adult, and convicted, do they serve their time in juvy or adult?

I would also like to say that this is the most conservative I have ever been. I'm very liberal, don't believe in CP (for many reasons, not just moral) but what happened in this crime goes way beyond a couple kids out for some kicks, and even my liberal heart finds it very difficult to wonder nature vs nurture, or if the poor kids just need some lovin' and understanding.

Just mho.

Oh, and amen Bruce for post 136. Very true.

[smurfalicious]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Also, does anyone know: if a juvy is tried as an adult, and convicted, do they serve their time in juvy or adult?

3 teens indicted in gang rape, could face life prison terms
Avion Lawson, 13, Nathan Walker, 16, and Jakaris Taylor, 15, were indicted on charges that included masked, armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators - eight counts - burglary with assault or battery, and kidnapping. Each of the eight sexual battery counts carries a life sentence. Four of the other 14 counts are first-degree felonies; the remaining two are felonies in the second and third degrees.

The defendants now will probably be booked into the county jail on Gun Club Road, the same as adults charged with crimes.

"That would be normal procedure. If they are charged as adults, they would be transferred to the main detention facility," said Paul Miller, a sheriff's office spokesman.

At the jail, they will be housed on the 12th-floor juvenile center, Miller said.

"There are always about 40 to 50 of them," he said. "They're kept away from adult prisoners."

If the three are convicted, they will likely be incarcerated at Indian River Correctional Institution in Vero Beach, where there is a "young adult offender" wing, said Florida Department of Corrections spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger. That's where Nathaniel Brazill, convicted of shooting and killing Lake Worth Middle School teacher Barry Grunow, initially was sent.

When they turn 18, young felons are transferred to other prisons to serve out their sentences, Plessinger said.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??

Are we sure Florida law says 18 and out?

[Hime]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??

I don't know, because I'm not a child psychologist or criminal scientist. I doubt that you are, either. The people who decided that children should be tried separately from adults, were.

It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Hime

It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.

So can an adult.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Hime

It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.

I agree with this almost 100% but the problem is that prisons and juevy do nothing to change a person but just reject them from society which usually makes the problem worse.

[Hime]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I agree with this almost 100% but the problem is that prisons and juevy do nothing to change a person but just reject them from society which usually makes the problem worse.

Yeah, that is the problem. My husband used to work in a jail, so I have a particularly grim view of how incarceration works in the US. Unfortunately, to my mind a lot of the problems come from the ingrained idea that bad things should happen to bad people -- unfortunately, having bad things happen to you frequently makes you an even worse person.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Hime

Yeah, that is the problem. My husband used to work in a jail, so I have a particularly grim view of how incarceration works in the US. Unfortunately, to my mind a lot of the problems come from the ingrained idea that bad things should happen to bad people -- unfortunately, having bad things happen to you frequently makes you an even worse person.

.................................what?!?

[rennison]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.

I do not agree with that............... The crime they commited was in no way juvenile and they were clearly mentally developed enough to pour ammonia over the victim in an attempt to cover their tracks............. Clearly some thought went into this crime