Bush Expected to Veto 'Hate Crimes' Bill - Page 6

piercehawkeye45 · 09-30-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spudcon

The simple flaw in hate crime laws is that it makes murder of one person more serious than murder of a different person. Why would a gay/black/policeman/muslim/white person be more valuable to society than anyone else.

The argument behind hate crimes are not, or at least shouldn't be, that blacks or gays are more important to society than straight whites, just that killing someone just because of their skin color or sexuality is worst than killing someone for another reason.

Whether you agree with a hate crime being worst than regular manslaughter or not, when it comes to murder the justice system does judge by intent so it does follow the pattern. If I kill someone in self-defense, kill someone by accident, and kill someone in cold blood I'm going to get different time in jails for each if any jail time at all.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-01-2007, 04:20 AM

Well if the court is already taking intent into consideration, why more legislation? Why more complicated rules? Why more pressure on the DA to decide rather than the court?

piercehawkeye45 · 10-01-2007, 08:08 AM

No idea, I'm agnostic on this issue.

I'm assuming because they think that extra work is justified but who knows.

Happy Monkey · 10-01-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Well if the court is already taking intent into consideration, why more legislation? Why more complicated rules? Why more pressure on the DA to decide rather than the court?

The DA doean't have to decide. The DA can charge both, and the jury decides.

DanaC · 10-02-2007, 06:54 AM

I'm not sure, but I think part of the rationale may be to have a better idea of how prevalent racially motivated crime is.

Another part of the rationale may be that whilst the actual murder is a crime committed against an individual, if it it is motivated by race-hate it also becomes a crime against the wider group.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-02-2007, 05:44 PM

Nonsense, if I kill you because you're British, it doesn't make a whit to the millions I didn't kill.

piercehawkeye45 · 10-02-2007, 07:52 PM

But then hanging Brits by tree branches was never an afternoon activity.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-02-2007, 09:52 PM

Stop wallowing in the past and move on.

bluecuracao · 10-02-2007, 09:57 PM

Yeah, pierce. Lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and trucks 'n' stuff are ancient history.

Aliantha · 10-02-2007, 09:59 PM

It doesn't even happen anymore does it?

tw · 10-02-2007, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

It doesn't even happen anymore does it?

Nope. Today we drag them from behind a pickup - especially if they are gay.

Elspode · 10-02-2007, 10:33 PM

I thought that we were tying them to fenceposts in freezing weather after beating them within an inch of their lives, leaving them to die?

Someone needs to update the fag killing protocols or we'll just have people killing them every which way, and then nothing will have been accomplished.

10-03-2007, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

The argument behind hate crimes are not, or at least shouldn't be, that blacks or gays are more important to society than straight whites, just that killing someone just because of their skin color or sexuality is worst than killing someone for another reason.

Whether you agree with a hate crime being worst than regular manslaughter or not, when it comes to murder the justice system does judge by intent so it does follow the pattern. If I kill someone in self-defense, kill someone by accident, and kill someone in cold blood I'm going to get different time in jails for each if any jail time at all.

Precisely, intent, circumstance and motive are not the same thing. Motive means nothing and when physical evidence is present, is rarely brought to bear in court at all by the prosecution. There is no reason to if their case is made by facts and evidence, it is only used in circumstantial cases. Waste of time otherwise and confuses the issue.
In fact, the defense will often try to use it as a red herring to confuse the jury.

10-02-2007, 09:59 PM	#85
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	It doesn't even happen anymore does it? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

10-02-2007, 10:33 PM	#87
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I thought that we were tying them to fenceposts in freezing weather after beating them within an inch of their lives, leaving them to die? Someone needs to update the fag killing protocols or we'll just have people killing them every which way, and then nothing will have been accomplished. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

10-01-2007, 04:20 AM	#77
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well if the court is already taking intent into consideration, why more legislation? Why more complicated rules? Why more pressure on the DA to decide rather than the court?

10-01-2007, 08:08 AM	#78
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	No idea, I'm agnostic on this issue. I'm assuming because they think that extra work is justified but who knows.

10-02-2007, 06:54 AM	#80
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	I'm not sure, but I think part of the rationale may be to have a better idea of how prevalent racially motivated crime is. Another part of the rationale may be that whilst the actual murder is a crime committed against an individual, if it it is motivated by race-hate it also becomes a crime against the wider group.

10-02-2007, 05:44 PM	#81
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Nonsense, if I kill you because you're British, it doesn't make a whit to the millions I didn't kill.

10-02-2007, 07:52 PM	#82
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	But then hanging Brits by tree branches was never an afternoon activity.

10-02-2007, 09:52 PM	#83
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Stop wallowing in the past and move on.

10-02-2007, 09:57 PM	#84
bluecuracao in a mood, not cupcake Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,034	Yeah, pierce. Lynchings and nooses hanging from trees and trucks 'n' stuff are ancient history.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)