What Iraqis Really Think

Originally Posted by aimeecc

why care if Americans can or cannot legally travel to an extremely short list of nations the US has had occasional hostilities with?

Because it demonstrates an anti-democratic principle.

If you, as an American, call your country "the leader of the democratic world" or "leader of the free world" or "introducing democracy to Irak or to wherever ..." then I think you ought to know some of the reasons why you have been misinformed. The fact that I am not an American should definitely upset you. But for the reason that you have a better chance of hearing the facts about your own country from a "foreigner", which brings us to another reason why you've been misinformed about democratic principles - your censorship of the national media.

The truth is that there are a number of countries that practice far better democratic principles than the U.S. Do you disbelieve that?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

If you, as an American, call your country "the leader of the democratic world" or "leader of the free world" or "introducing democracy to Irak or to wherever ..." then I think you ought to know some of the reasons why you have been misinformed.

Well I certainly have never called our country those things. And the ones who usually are calling us those things are usually idiots from other countries who have some bone to pick with our international policies. Frankly, I could give a rats ass.

This may be the only time that I agree with you Merc - well, partly anyway.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

This may be the only time that I agree with you Merc - well, partly anyway.

The point is that most of this international back lash is all about Iraq. Well we are stuck with that tar baby and we cannot just leave. And to all of those who think we can I would say let them stand up and be counted, including those who are currently in power or may soon hold the keys to the White House. And when the smoke clears and there is a massive genocide and relocation of people in Iraq you will hold the responsibility for the event, not me. Certainly do not ask me or my family to go back there and fix it after that.

I really believe that if the US is viewed in such a bad way by so many people it is time for us to withdraw a bit from the international scene, esp with our aid programs, and let the chips fall where they will...

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The point is that most of this international back lash is all about Iraq. Well we are stuck with that tar baby and we cannot just leave. ...

Look. The U.N. was actively working on diplomatic leverage to solve Iraks problems WITHOUT war. America said that diplomacy was out of the question because Irak was in posession of WMD's - poised to strike at the world at a second's notice. It wasn't a mistake - THE U.S. LIED! When you're done smoking that pipe you can crawl (on your knees) and beg the U.N. to try to get back on the track that they had started before the United Snakes rushed in with all of their bombs and war machinerery and created a far worse problem then it ever was.

The U.N. was correct from the very beginning. If they are willing to find a solution to America's blunder then you ought to beg them to do what they can. Personally, if I had the say I'd leave the Americans there to stew in their own shit but I don't have the majority vote in the U.N. You can be happy for that.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Look. The U.N. was actively working on diplomatic leverage to solve Iraks problems WITHOUT war. America said that diplomacy was out of the question because Irak was in posession of WMD's - poised to strike at the world at a second's notice. It wasn't a mistake - THE U.S. LIED! When you're done smoking that pipe you can crawl (on your knees) and beg the U.N. to try to get back on the track that they had started before the United Snakes rushed in with all of their bombs and war machinerery and created a far worse problem then it ever was.

The U.N. was correct from the very beginning. If they are willing to find a solution to America's blunder then you ought to beg them to do what they can. Personally, if I had the say I'd leave the Americans there to stew in their own shit but I don't have the majority vote in the U.N. You can be happy for that.

Screw that and screw the UN. Neither I or anyone I know will "crawl (on your knees) and beg the U.N." for anything. The UN had done nothing, still does nothing, and will not do anything in the future. And last time I checked we pretty much are there in Iraq to "stew in their own shit" {mostly by ourselves with a smattering from the UK} which is why people like you have no say as to how we deal with it and your opinion on the issue is not really relevant.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

... last time I checked we pretty much are there in Iraq to "stew in their own shit" which is why people like you have no say as to how we deal with it .

That's great by me. I will have my wish granted. I'll need to stock up on munchies for the nightly news list of how many more Yanks won't be coming home in one piece.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

The truth is that there are a number of countries that practice far better democratic principles than the U.S. Do you disbelieve that?

[richlevy]

Griff you responded to the argument by implying that there are countries which are far worse than the U.S. I don't think anyone here disagrees with this.

As for democratic principles, this census shows that in recent presidential, not off-year elections, of potential voters only 70-72 percent are registered and 58-64 percent vote.

Even in some countries where compulsory voting is not or is no longer practiced, they manage better turnouts.

IDEA places the US 139 out of 172. I am still trying to figure out if countries which exclude women from voting are penalized or rewarded in the counting, but in any case based on voter turnout alone, the US is not the most democratic country in the world.

Is voter turnout the sole criteria? No, but turnout can be an indicator of apathy, which can be either a cause of, or effect from, the failure of governments to truly represent the majority of citizens above special interests.

Are we the worst? No. In general, in terms of safety, wealth, and freedom, the US is better than most countries in the world. We are also not the world's most populous. A child be born in the world today has (I'm guessing) about a 1 in 20 chance of being born a U.S. citizen. The child would be 4 times more likely to be born Chinese, 3 times more likely to be born Indian, and 2/3 to 1/2 as likely to be born in Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, or Bangladesh.

If I were given a choice from that list, knowing what I know now (to quote a famous politician), I would still choose to be born here.

Right now the system is a bit f***d up. However, our founding fathers gave us a self-correcting and non-violent system to effect change if we choose to use it. Personally, I think we will simply because deep down we all know things can't go on this way much longer.

[Griff]

Those are all French instances of anti-democratic and / or poor international acting. Through several threads we've seen commentary from A D about our poor record which I readily admit and questions about our stability which I also have. Assuming he's French, I just want to be sure he isn't holding France up as a model for stable democracies.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Swedish tourists evacuated from Kenya
Jan 07, 2008
Stockholm, Sweden - More than 300 Swedish tourists have been evacuated from Kenya amid chaos following the African nation's contentious presidential election.

Swedish travel operators pulled 354 tourists from Mombasa Saturday -- five days ahead of schedule, The Local reported Sunday.

It is not suspected the tourists encountered any violence first-hand, the Local said.

Travel officials have canceled all remaining flights from Sweden to Kenya for the season.

What? How dare they interfere with the free travel of Swedish citizens. Outrageous.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Griff

Those are all French instances of anti-democratic and / or poor international acting. Through several threads we've seen commentary from A D about our poor record which I readily admit and questions about our stability which I also have. Assuming he's French, I just want to be sure he isn't holding France up as a model for stable democracies.

I agree. The French and the U.S. have very similar pedigrees. We were both created by revolution from monarchies. We are both Republics. We both annexed colonies or territories. We both are struggling with immigration issues.

The reason that the French appear to annoy Europeans more than Americans do is

a) Proximity - France is not quite in the middle of Europe
b) Military - The U.S. has one of the largest armies in the world. We currently have only one loss due to forfeit (Vietnam) and one tie (Korea). The French have pretty much lost any conflict in the past 100 years to any country that had access to gunpowder. In spite of this many people feel they are as arrogant as the US. If a bulldog growls and barks it gets respect. If a miniature poodle does the same it gets annoyed looks.

That being said, they do have great food, nice music, grand architecture, and some of the most beautiful women in the world.

I'd also trade GWB in for Sarkozy in a heartbeat. The man has even managed to out-Clinton Clinton in the mistress department. Instead of a chubby intern, the man is screwing a supermodel!

[Griff]

Yep. France is awesome, but they have many of the same issues we do. American women kinda rock though, being from everywhere and all.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Griff

Yep. France is awesome, but they have many of the same issues we do. American women kinda rock though, being from everywhere and all.

Difficult to make a comparison without a taste test.

We now return you to your previously scheduled thread.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Griff

Yep. France is awesome, but they have many of the same issues we do. American women kinda rock though, being from everywhere and all.

France Sux.