Torture memos

[Undertoad]

Dux, to clarify, you said regarding the "Second Wave" attack plot on LA, the details of which we now know were learned using controversial techniques:

"... it has been reported just as much by other sources that no such wave was a serious threat."

That is the statement on which I am still waiting for a citation. Please, take your time to find one of those other sources.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Dux, to clarify, you said regarding the "Second Wave" attack plot on LA, the details of which we now know were learned using controversial techniques:

"... it has been reported just as much by other sources that no such wave was a serious threat."

That is the statement on which I am still waiting for a citation. Please, take your time to find one of those other sources.

UT...the reports I had read referred to the fact that the members of the Jemaah Islamiyah (the so-called Indonesian wing of al queda) who were reportedly recruited for the "second wave" against Los Angeles were captured in 2002 as a result of other intel (even before KSM was waterboarded).

But I cant find the report that I read...so I'll take an F on this one.

The larger point I was trying to make was that there is nothing to suggest that legal interrogation would not have accomplished the same or better results as noted by the former interrogator (and others) in the article I posted above.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Dux, to clarify, you said regarding the "Second Wave" attack plot on LA, the details of which we now know were learned using controversial techniques:

"... it has been reported just as much by other sources that no such wave was a serious threat."

That is the statement on which I am still waiting for a citation. Please, take your time to find one of those other sources.

UT.....from a speech by Bush in 2006:

Since September the 11th, the United States and our coalition partners have disrupted a number of serious al Qaeda terrorist plots -- including plots to attack targets inside the United States. Let me give you an example. In the weeks after September the 11th, while Americans were still recovering from an unprecedented strike on our homeland, al Qaeda was already busy planning its next attack. We now know that in October 2001, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad -- the mastermind of the September the 11th attacks -- had already set in motion a plan to have terrorist operatives hijack an airplane using shoe bombs to breach the cockpit door, and fly the plane into the tallest building on the West Coast. We believe the intended target was Liberty [sic] Tower in Los Angeles, California.*

Rather than use Arab hijackers as he had on September the 11th, Khalid Shaykh Muhammad sought out young men from Southeast Asia -- whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion. To help carry out this plan, he tapped a terrorist named Hambali, one of the leaders of an al Qaeda affiliated group in Southeast Asia called "J-I." JI terrorists were responsible for a series of deadly attacks in Southeast Asia, and members of the group had trained with al Qaeda. Hambali recruited several key operatives who had been training in Afghanistan. Once the operatives were recruited, they met with Osama bin Laden, and then began preparations for the West Coast attack.

Their plot was derailed in early 2002 when a Southeast Asian nation arrested a key al Qaeda operative. Subsequent debriefings and other intelligence operations made clear the intended target, and how al Qaeda hoped to execute it. This critical intelligence helped other allies capture the ringleaders and other known operatives who had been recruited for this plot. The West Coast plot had been thwarted.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0060209-2.html

The timeline for the asserting that it was the result of waterboarding KSM and Zubaydan just doesnt fit.

The plot was "derailed in early 2002...." when the Jemaah Islamiyah (J-I) guys were arrested in Malaysia.

KSM was not captured and waterboarded until 2003. Zubaydan was waterboarded in late summer of 2002.

Another example of the timeline not fitting the assertions that waterboarding worked:

The Justice Department memorandums released last week illustrate how difficult it can be to assess claims of effectiveness. One 2005 memorandum, for example, asserts that “enhanced techniques” used on Abu Zubaydah and Mr. Mohammed “yielded critical information.”

But the memorandum then lists among Abu Zubaydah’s revelations the identification of Mr. Mohammed and of an alleged radiological bomb plot by Jose Padilla, the American Qaeda associate. Both those disclosures were made long before Abu Zubaydah was subjected to harsh treatment, according to multiple accounts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us...n.html?_r=2&hp