Saddam captured - Page 3

elSicomoro · 12-14-2003, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
What do other nations do at that point? We said, basically, "We have a gun pointed at us, and we want the OK to go remove it."

To what exactly are you referring when you use "gun"?

Hubris Boy · 12-14-2003, 01:06 PM

No matter how we handle Saddam, somebody's gonna get their panties in a wad about it.

Fuck it.

I say, give 'im to the Kurds. They'll know what to do.

Undertoad · 12-14-2003, 01:09 PM

It really doesn't matter! On the diplomatic stage, that was and remains the contention of the USA.

But if you want to extend the analogy, the bullets in the gun are WMD, the gun is the intent to use them.

Nobody disputes the fact that there was a gun, they only dispute that there were bullets. Last February Colin Powell described the bullet factories and we found them, and we have plenty of evidence of many more bullet factories since then. We just haven't found the actual cache of bullets.

Some feel the bullets might be in Syria, some people feel they are buried in the sand, and some people feel the bullets were just stories about bullets. I say, if there are bullet factories with trucks of lead and brass and gunpowder, that's proof enough for me, and I don't really need to see an actual bullet.

And frankly, a guy holding a gun is danger enough for me to take action. I don't really care if there are bullets in it.

quzah · 12-14-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
But if you want to extend the analogy, the bullets in the gun are WMD, the gun is the intent to use them.

Nobody disputes the fact that there was a gun, they only dispute that there were bullets. Last February Colin Powell described the bullet factories and we found them, and we have plenty of evidence of many more bullet factories since then. We just haven't found the actual cache of bullets.

What's your point? We have a shit-load of WMD pointed all over the fucking place. Does anyone come tell us to stop using them? What about the nifty new pox virus we've been working on? The one with 100% kill rate in mice. The one with 100% kill rate in cows? Oh, yeah, sure, that's just for defense, to prepare a cure. Bullshit. It's a weapon. But it's ok, because we're the US of A and we're always right.

America is so two-faced it's sickening.

And as for Saddam... he's fucked. Everyone knows it. To pharaphrase my SO, never ever be considered useful to the USA. They'll stab you in the back when they decide you're no longer useful.

Quzah.

Kitsune · 12-14-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
And frankly, a guy holding a gun is danger enough for me to take action. I don't really care if there are bullets in it.

My problem with this is that how the US moves on other countries that are a threat tends not to make sense. Okay, so there might be WMD in Iraq, but the threat of it was so miniscule that we can't even find any WMD or even a trace. Yet, at the same time, we have a country working feverishly to build ICBMs, has threatened us with nukes, and has even launched missiles over Japan to prove that they are a big threat to the world.

Which country to we take issue with? The one where we can find a man hidden in a hole in a ground, but can't find biological or chemical weapons residue.

I do, UT, agree with what you say regarding the UN. They're usually so slow that more people end up suffering while we wait for negotiations.

wolf · 12-14-2003, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quzah
But it's ok, because we're the US of A and we're always right.

Well, yeah. Get yourself a couple plane tickets to your utopia and put your stuff in a shipping container.

Nobody's making you stay in a country you clearly dislike.

Live with it, work to change it, or move on.

Undertoad · 12-14-2003, 01:46 PM

That's true Kitsune... NK might even be a worse problem. And it's definitely a worse humanitarian disaster. And there are still other worse hellholes and dictators.

Kitsune · 12-14-2003, 01:52 PM

Yeah, I'm actually growing really concerned about NK.

I *think* the only reason we're staying off of them is because China and other surrounding countries seem to be enough of a deterrant to them to prevent them from hitting the button. The only problem is that if it stays that way, North Korea just keeps getting more technology and more power as everyone waits it out.

elSicomoro · 12-14-2003, 02:11 PM

I think part of the reason that we don't go after North Korea is b/c we don't quite know what to expect from them. We had a pretty good idea of what to expect out of Iraq, but North Korea is like a mystery package.

I agree with Kitsune...who was more of a threat? And maybe I was just living under a rock, but that evidence presented by the US regarding Iraq didn't look very convincing to me. I'm not sure there really was any gunpowder around.

And is there something wrong with complaining about our country? After all, if we don't complain about the problems, we could very well become oblivious to them.

wolf · 12-14-2003, 02:23 PM

Complain all the heck you want. You can, you know ... that's all part of the "it's a free country" thing, that people take for granted. It's when people express outright hate for their country of origin and/or residence, that I get cranky over it.

elSicomoro · 12-14-2003, 02:40 PM

I wouldn't consider Quzah's comments as outright hate, here or overall on the Cellar. I just think he's a bit more pessimistic and vocal than most of us on the subject.

But hell, let's ask him.

Quzah, overall, how do you feel about the United States?

Undertoad · 12-14-2003, 02:48 PM

More Lieberman from Meet The Press:

Quote:

Russert: As you know, Governor Dean has surged to the front of the pack in the Democratic race, now called the front-runner. He was endorsed by Al Gore, the man who said three years ago that you should be the person one heartbeat away from the presidency. Why did Al Gore endorse Howard Dean and not you?

Lieberman: Well, you'd have to ask Al Gore that question. From my point of view, the last week has clarified the choice that Democrats and Independents who vote in our primaries have between Howard Dean and me. He will take this country backward to where we were before Bill Clinton transformed our party. I'm going to continue more determined than ever to fight for what's right for my party and my country. That means supporting middle-class tax cuts which he's opposed to, supporting fiscal responsibility, supporting a strong defense. And let's be real specific. On the question that we're celebrating today, Howard Dean throughout this campaign has said he wasn't sure that Saddam really represented a threat to us. At one point he said, "I suppose the Iraqis are better off with Saddam Hussein gone." I would say this, and this is a choice the voters have to make in the primaries. If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam Hussein would be power today, not in prison.

Ouch, that's gotta hurt!

elSicomoro · 12-14-2003, 02:58 PM

Enlighten me, UT...this is supposed to hurt Dean? It sounds to me like Lieberman is desperate to inject some energy into his campaign, so he does what he's done best recently: attack Howard Dean.

quzah · 12-14-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wolf
Live with it, work to change it, or move on.

Oh, I see, "Live with it" is your way of saying shut up, you don't get an opintion?
Second, if America can't even have its presidential ellections held accurately, *I* am supposed to change it on my own? Riiiight. The entire state of Florida couldn't change it. Magicly I myself can?

Quzah.

quzah · 12-14-2003, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore
I think part of the reason that we don't go after North Korea is b/c we don't quite know what to expect from them. We had a pretty good idea of what to expect out of Iraq, but North Korea is like a mystery package.

Let me shatter your illusions and put it out there nice and clear for you: North Korea has no oil.

Quzah.

12-14-2003, 02:23 PM	#40
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Complain all the heck you want. You can, you know ... that's all part of the "it's a free country" thing, that people take for granted. It's when people express outright hate for their country of origin and/or residence, that I get cranky over it. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

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12-14-2003, 01:06 PM	#32
Hubris Boy Keymaster of Gozer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Patapsco Drainage Basin Posts: 471	No matter how we handle Saddam, somebody's gonna get their panties in a wad about it. Fuck it. I say, give 'im to the Kurds. They'll know what to do.

12-14-2003, 01:09 PM	#33
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It really doesn't matter! On the diplomatic stage, that was and remains the contention of the USA. But if you want to extend the analogy, the bullets in the gun are WMD, the gun is the intent to use them. Nobody disputes the fact that there was a gun, they only dispute that there were bullets. Last February Colin Powell described the bullet factories and we found them, and we have plenty of evidence of many more bullet factories since then. We just haven't found the actual cache of bullets. Some feel the bullets might be in Syria, some people feel they are buried in the sand, and some people feel the bullets were just stories about bullets. I say, if there are bullet factories with trucks of lead and brass and gunpowder, that's proof enough for me, and I don't really need to see an actual bullet. And frankly, a guy holding a gun is danger enough for me to take action. I don't really care if there are bullets in it.

12-14-2003, 01:46 PM	#37
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	That's true Kitsune... NK might even be a worse problem. And it's definitely a worse humanitarian disaster. And there are still other worse hellholes and dictators.

12-14-2003, 01:52 PM	#38
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Yeah, I'm actually growing really concerned about NK. I think the only reason we're staying off of them is because China and other surrounding countries seem to be enough of a deterrant to them to prevent them from hitting the button. The only problem is that if it stays that way, North Korea just keeps getting more technology and more power as everyone waits it out.

12-14-2003, 02:11 PM	#39
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I think part of the reason that we don't go after North Korea is b/c we don't quite know what to expect from them. We had a pretty good idea of what to expect out of Iraq, but North Korea is like a mystery package. I agree with Kitsune...who was more of a threat? And maybe I was just living under a rock, but that evidence presented by the US regarding Iraq didn't look very convincing to me. I'm not sure there really was any gunpowder around. And is there something wrong with complaining about our country? After all, if we don't complain about the problems, we could very well become oblivious to them.

12-14-2003, 02:40 PM	#41
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I wouldn't consider Quzah's comments as outright hate, here or overall on the Cellar. I just think he's a bit more pessimistic and vocal than most of us on the subject. But hell, let's ask him. Quzah, overall, how do you feel about the United States?

12-14-2003, 02:58 PM	#43
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Enlighten me, UT...this is supposed to hurt Dean? It sounds to me like Lieberman is desperate to inject some energy into his campaign, so he does what he's done best recently: attack Howard Dean.

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