taxation

[BigV]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You fail to recognize that our tax on the corps is among the highest in the world and there is no incentive for them to stay here. Many have left, many are leaving. Ireland has become the new corp tax haven. If they leave they leave with what little we get. The money parked offshore was done through legal means. I understand all that. You think we should make them bring it back and they should give our broken system of government more money to waste, I am not so sure about that. I think it has less to do with suffering of the corps and more to do with the normal process of generating money, which is what all businesses do, it is why they exist. Governments want to tax corps, corps try to figure out ways to shelter it. Until our tax system is completely overhauled and the laws changed, that money is not coming back.

Ireland, huh?

Ok, let's take a look at Ireland.

Economy - overview:
Ireland is a small, modern, trade-dependent economy. Ireland was among the initial group of 12 EU nations that began circulating the euro on 1 January 2002. GDP growth averaged 6% in 1995-2007, but economic activity has dropped sharply since the onset of the world financial crisis, with GDP falling by over 3% in 2008, nearly 8% in 2009, and 1% in 2010. Ireland entered into a recession in 2008 for the first time in more than a decade, with the subsequent collapse of its domestic property and construction markets. Property prices rose more rapidly in Ireland in the decade up to 2007 than in any other developed economy. Since their 2007 peak, average house prices have fallen 50%.

In the wake of the collapse of the construction sector and the downturn in consumer spending and business investment, the export sector, dominated by foreign multinationals, has become a key component of Ireland's economy. Agriculture, once the most important sector, is now dwarfed by industry and services.

In 2008 the COWEN government moved to guarantee all bank deposits, recapitalize the banking system, and establish partly-public venture capital funds in response to the country's economic downturn. In 2009, in continued efforts to stabilize the banking sector, the Irish Government established the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) to acquire problem commercial property and development loans from Irish banks.

Faced with sharply reduced revenues and a burgeoning budget deficit, the Irish Government introduced the first in a series of draconian budgets in 2009. In addition to across-the-board cuts in spending, the 2009 budget included wage reductions for all public servants. These measures were not sufficient.

In 2010, the budget deficit reached 32.4% of GDP - the world's largest deficit, as a percentage of GDP - because of additional government support for the banking sector. In late 2010, the COWEN Government agreed to a $112 billion loan package from the EU and IMF to help Dublin further increase the capitalization of its banking sector and avoid defaulting on its sovereign debt. The government also initiated a four-year austerity plan to cut an additional $20 billion from its budget. A return to modest growth is expected in 2011.

So, all these companies that fled to Ireland, how'd that work out for Ireland?

[classicman]

and from the link within your link ...

"The president has made clear that he believes we need to reform our corporate tax system," White House spokesman Jay Carney said on Thursday. "He believes that we can lower our corporate tax rate without diminishing revenues if we go after a lot of loopholes that exist, a lot of the complexity."

I again agree. Now who is stopping this from happening?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Remember now this is Obama's guy. His personal pic. The guy who is actively sending and creating jobs overseas, not here in the US. The king of outsourcing and dodging taxes...

And here is why.

Immelt said a small tax bill for 2010 was due to more than $30 billion in losses related to GE's financial services business during the financial crisis. In 2009, GE Capital's losses were so large that it company overall lost money on its U.S. operations.

Now the issue which remains is how much have they historically been paying over, say the last ten years?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by classicman

And here is why.


Now the issue which remains is how much have they historically been paying over, say the last ten years?

That is a good fucking question. An *excellent* question. Good luck finding fats like that for public companies. Because among all the reporting requirements for publicly held companies, listing "amount of federal income tax paid" is not one of them. It could be, the standards setting decision makers (I don't know who that is, sorry) could make that a requirement like all the other metrics that are required reporting. Certainly such a figure exists, but it is not reported.

Good luck finding that value.

[SamIam]

This is what I found in the New York Times from May of this year:

But by taking advantage of myriad breaks and loopholes that other countries generally do not offer, United States corporations pay only slightly more on average than their counterparts in other industrial countries. And some American corporations use aggressive strategies to pay less — often far less — than their competitors abroad and at home. A Government Accountability Office study released in 2008 found that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes during at least one year in a seven-year period it studied.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/bu...ates.html?_r=1

55 PERCENT PAID NONE

[classicman]

Well ... hmm ... then how do we know they didn't pay any this time?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by SamIam

55 PERCENT PAID NONE

Thats a great sign to take to an OCCUPY event.

[TheMercenary]

This pretty much sums it up... Not safe for those with easily brused egos and sensitive ears.... Obama and Congress needs to play this on a wide screen.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by BigV

That is a good fucking question. An *excellent* question. Good luck finding fats like that for public companies. Because among all the reporting requirements for publicly held companies, listing "amount of federal income tax paid" is not one of them. It could be, the standards setting decision makers (I don't know who that is, sorry) could make that a requirement like all the other metrics that are required reporting. Certainly such a figure exists, but it is not reported.

Good luck finding that value.

I reckon THIS should be the first step in tax reform. Easy, no economic impact, but will shine some light on the facts of what is really going on.

[ZenGum]

This whole argument about corporations shifting to other countries for lower tax rates is another illustration of the fact that global corporations have more power than national governments.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

global corporations have more power than national governments.

Not if the countries work together, I think that is part of the issue. Those in power seem to trying to solve these issues independently, when global solutions are needed.

[ZenGum]

Indeed, I had started out on a rant/metaphor about how this was like the early days of unionism. I deleted it because the metaphor didn't really hold up.

Could you really see all the countries of the world agreeing to set corporate tax at a certain minimum? And then keeping this agreement? Without looking for some sneaky loophole to get their own (short term) advantage?

Corporations play governments off against each other all the time. Tax rates and breaks, labour laws, environmental laws, etc etc. are all under pressure.

Despite the obvious risks, an effective world government would seem to be the only solution. Only question is, how long 'til the corporate interests buy control of that as well?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

Not if the countries work together, I think that is part of the issue. Those in power seem to trying to solve these issues independently, when global solutions are needed.

A country like Ireland has no incentive to work with rich countries when they are in the shit and everyone else is pretty much doing better than them. Global Kumabya isn't going to happen. One of the many truths of this world is you do what is right for your country First.

[DanaC]

Hard enough to get individuals within a country to act together...

[classicman]

Oh, There is no way that its gonna work. Not in our lifetimes anyway.