Rice

[henry quirk]

Over at Philosophy Now there's a thread (On Ray Rice and Moral Absolutes).

The question there: "Is absolute non-violence against women a true and justified moral absolute?"

My answer: Of course not.

If she's comin' at you with a knife, you best defend yourself.

#

Three issues...

Rice's 'domestic violence': since his wife has 'forgiven' him, the rest of the world needs to shut the hell up and go about its business.

Rice's termination (from the team and all endorsements): these are contractual matters...if Rice violated contracts then, boo hoo for him...if the team and endorsers released Rice without an agreed-upon policy for such things in place then, Rice can seek redress in the courts.

'Domestic violence' (in general): I'm guessin' a fat percentage of what's reported is (like many reports of rape) not actually violence of man against woman, but a simple yanking of the man's leash by the woman.

Not sayin' men don't beat up and rape women...'am' sayin' that many of these accusations are horseshit.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

the world needs to shut the hell up and go about its business.

Then why are you starting a thread about it?

[henry quirk]

A good question, glatt...

[DanaC]

like many reports of rape

Most analyses of probable levels of rape and reporting suggest that the number of false claims are very small. The number of actual rapes is very high.

And I find your comments about domestic abuse deeply disturbing. Having known several victims I can assure you it is a very real phenomenon.

But hey: clearly the real victims here are the menz.

Ffs.

2 women are killed every week in England and Wales by a current or former partner (Homicide Statistics, 1998) – 1 woman killed every 3 days

30% of domestic violence either starts or will intensify during pregnancy (Department of Health report, October 2004)

Foetal morbidity from violence is more prevalent than gestational diabetes or pre-eclampsia (Friend, 1998)

http://www.refuge.org.uk/get-help-no...nce-the-facts/

[Aliantha]

Actually, as far as rape goes, a hell of a lot more cases go unreported than false claims made.

I have never looked up the statistics, but I'd stake everything I have on it as a fact.

[Gravdigr]

Raywhonow?

Fuck him and feed him fishheads.

[Undertoad]

well what people believe is cultured behavior is pretty fluid, and always changes, no matter whether anyone has done the math to determine whether there's a justified moral absolute involved

normally in these cases all is forgiven but here the N. F. of L. is dependent on the good will of its fan base. including a huge number of men who are driven into a grilled meats and testosterone based frenzy every Sunday, but cherish the women in their lives and would never beat on them

and also let's not bring the ghetto into the N. F. of L. we are not supposed to notice the huge moral and cultural gap between the players and ourselves. pro players are supposed to at least be relatable to, in some way.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

Rice's 'domestic violence': since his wife has 'forgiven' him, the rest of the world needs to shut the hell up and go about its business.

A crime is a crime. Society doesn't give her the right to "forgive" him from punishment any more than a murder victim's family can say, "no biggie, please don't prosecute." Often domestic violence has no third party witnesses, so it's difficult to prosecute without the woman's cooperation. But in this case it was caught on tape. She's welcome to ask for leniency at his sentencing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Actually, as far as rape goes, a hell of a lot more cases go unreported than false claims made.

I have never looked up the statistics, but I'd stake everything I have on it as a fact.

The problem with gathering statistics on this, is in many cases it's he said, she said, with no way to prove the truth.

[Sundae]

I know two women who were date raped.
The first was a very close friend who confided in me and was relieved when I said she'd been raped. She said, "I thought I was over-reacting."
And no, She didn't go to the police because this was in the 80s, she'd smoked dope that night and she just wanted to put it all beind not, not keep reliving it.

The other was a friend who dispassionately told what had happened one drunken night. We were drunk I mean. She didn't report it because she'd gone back to his flat. She wasn't naive, but she thought they were moving slowly towards a relationship, step by step. She trusted him. Because they'd been out together, because people had seen them together, she thought it could never be proved she said No and continued to say No. She lashed out at him and he threatened to smash her teeth in. There was no doubt he could do it.

Neither of these women had any reason to lie to me.
Neither felt they could report a crime, although in both cases the sex occurred under duress.
And neither were yanking the man involved's chain.

I know the plural of experience is not data, but I also doubt that a fat percentage of domestic violence or rape is solely the responsibility of the woman involved.
People ask why a woman doesn't walk away, leave, fight back etc. same can be said of the men. If a woman yanks your chain so hard you have to resort to violence in your own home, then get the fuck out of that relationship. Or otherwise the next time she burns your toast you might just get yourself sent to prison.

[Aliantha]

I get what you're saying Bruce, but like Sundae, i know many women who have been raped or sexually assaulted and didn't report it for exactly that reason. The woman is (almost always) the victim, and yet she is ALWAYS painted as some kind of temptress (putting it nicely) and so then has to defend her own shattered honour and prove it was forcefully taken.

Society across the board has a long way to go on this issue.

[DanaC]

If you ask most women, you'll find that they know at least one other woman who has been raped or subjected to serious sexual assault. Most women also know at least one other woman who has experienced violence within a relationship.

Off the top of my head I know around 6 women who have experienced one of those.

One of the women who was abused in a relationship was my old boss when I taught literacy. By the time I knew her she'd left the guy and remarried. But I also knew her kids. And her kids remember the time their dad kicked their pregnant mum so hard she lost the baby she was carrying. That assault was the culmination of several years of brutal abuse and mind games - including locking the doors and windows when he went out to make sure she and the kids didn't run and making threats as to what he'd do if she ever left.

That final assault left her black and blue, with a broken cheekbone and a miscarriage - why was it so brutal? because he found a piece of note paper with the number of a refuge on it. She'd already sorted out a place - she got out with the help of the police and her husband served a few years for battery.

I know too many women who've had the shit kicked out of them by men who didn't know how to control their temper, or who had a profound need to control their women, not to find this whole thread kinda icky.

[henry quirk]

Since a lot of useless and unverifiable anecdotes are being foisted up ('I knows 4 and 1/2 bodies who done got raped, beaten, shot, and then abducted by ufo alien Jeezus [who probed their rectums!]!'), allow me to foist up my own...

I self-employ doing criminal and civil research.

Over the past decade I've spent a god-awful amount of time in the hard-copy and virtual archives of ten parish courthouses (and in the company of defenders, prosecutors, accused, and accusers).

A goodly chunk of my criminal research involves claims of child abuse (sexual and non) and 'domestic violence/rape'.

Over a decade: I've looked at the end results of, or occasionally have participated (peripherally) in, a hundred-plus (child abuse and 'domestic violence/rape') investigations.

A great many of these claims (woman claims man beat her; woman claims man beat child; woman claims man raped her; woman claims man raped child) turn out to be utter crap...lies that are recanted, or, proven false.

Not saying' 'most'; am sayin' 'a great many'.

Many of the stats foisted up (to illustrate the numbers of women and children abused) are based on arrests, not convictions and so -- in my experience -- are suspect.


#

"A crime is a crime."

Sure. I'm simply inclined to let the victim (as a free agent) have a (primary) say in things. Mrs. Rice 'forgives' Mr. Rice. Since he didn't beat me (or you), I'm thinkin' Mrs. Rice should be allowed to live with her choices (and the consequences of her choices).

Since (insofar as I know) Rice isn't goin' to trial, seems to me 'society' (at least in the Rice case) agrees with me.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

Since (insofar as I know) Rice isn't goin' to trial, seems to me 'society' (at least in the Rice case) agrees with me.

Perhaps only because he's famous.

[henry quirk]

Probably.