Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Hezbollah apparently belived they did, since that's what they were doing. That's the great thing about being "the party of God", wnhatever you want to do is OK. Almost "angelic".

You can claim that Israel bombed indiscriminately, but that's not actually the case. You seem to be having a problem with meaning of the word "indiscriminate". Its meaning doesn't include "attempting to avoid collateral damage" or "operating under restrictions as to their use".

However, launching missiles with high-explosive shrapnel warheads and primitive or no guidance systems into a city does qualify as "indiscriminate".

Both sides claim their right on religeous grounds. Most settlers are orthodox Jews claiming religious reasons for their territory.

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate weapons. The fact that they were used proof the fact. It is not my claim, just the simple fact they used it.

Both sides use indiscriminate weapons, albeit Israel on a much larger scale and that's what I meant with the splinter and the beam.

Did you perhaps notice who wrote the editorial in question?

It is wrong because it doesn't fit your high moral world view?

Nor is there anything particularly nasty, as weaponry goes, about cluster bombs and bomblets, Hippikos. Only those of little experience of war are going to get extra-specially wound up about this weapon or that being used and on whomever.

All tough talk from your comfy EZ chair, UG. Come back to me when you find them in your room and back garden. And tell Maggie when she goes bezerk again about these nasty Katushas...

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

It is wrong because it doesn't fit your high moral world view?

I was actually addressing tw, who would still rather call me names rather than respond to the question. I think I'll go back to ignoring him now (since he's actually ignoring me); it's a fitting punishment. Far be it from me to continue to try to convince him that he might listen to a Lebanese national rather that his "centrist" (now there's a howler...pardon me, a fucking howler) BBC.

(I guess refusing to use the word "terrorist" at all might look "centrist" next to those who call the Israelis "terrorists". But I think that's a funny place to put your "center". )

There's a difference between using an area weapon and indescriminate bombing. An area weapon targets an area rather than just a point, but in the case of a cluster bomb the area is precicely determined because the weapon is precicely guided to a selected target.

A shrapnel-fiilled high-explosive warhead with no guidance system is indiscriminate; the person firing it has very little idea of or control over who it kills.

Of course, a nail-studden Semtex vest detonated in a pizza shop is an area weapon, but also indiscriminate; even though the human bomb is much more *capable* of controlling who is killed than a Hezbollah rocket artilleryman, he or she simply doesn't care; after all, Allah knows his own.

[Hippikos]

There's a difference between using an area weapon and indescriminate bombing. An area weapon targets an area rather than just a point, but in the case of a cluster bomb the area is precicely determined because the weapon is precicely guided to a selected target.

Maggie, do you have any idea what utter nonsense you're excreting? Although mines are banneed under the Ottawa Treatment, cluster bombs have caused more civilian casualties in Kosovo and Iraq than mines. UN experts found at least 100,000 unexploded bomblets at over 300 sites in Lebanon. Do you really think cluster bombs are precisely guided? The area affected by a single cluster munition, also known as the footprint, can be as large as two or three football fields. Again, you call this precisely? Israel knows exactly what damage cluster bombs do to civillian population. But maybe that's allowed from your moral point of view?

(since he's actually ignoring me)

I see a message from TW just above yours, do you have a selective sight?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Both sides claim their right on religeous grounds. Most settlers are orthodox Jews claiming religious reasons for their territory.

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something. As for Moslem religious claims, they have a heavy flavor of Muhammed-come-lately to them. No way would they have primacy. Also no particular reason to call for throwing them out, either.

Cluster bombs are indiscriminate weapons. The fact that they were used proof the fact. It is not my claim, just the simple fact they used it.

Both sides use indiscriminate weapons, albeit Israel on a much larger scale and that's what I meant with the splinter and the beam.

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate. I cannot get more worked up about cluster munitions vs. Mk 84 2000-pound GP free-fall bombs in any rational way, for reasons seen above. And any unexploded ordnance of any description is still trouble, and the way to bet is it's trouble on a hair trigger. They're still losing farmers around Mons, Verdun, and the Somme to stuff that landed there ninety years ago.

All tough talk from your comfy EZ chair, UG. Come back to me when you find them in your room and back garden. And tell Maggie when she goes bezerk again about these nasty Katushas...

If you are currently active in EOD work, Hippikos, then and only then may you talk shit to me about UXO. Unless you are currently active in EOD work, you've got no call to kick. Nor would it hurt to spell "berserk" or "Katyusha" right [stress the first syllable, btw, KAHT-yusha... can't tell you why the Russians called a bombardment rocket "Kathie," but they did]. If you're going to piss people off, don't do it stupidly -- we tend to put your balls in the Osterizer and hit "pulse."

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something.

Heh, you probably could. But even if you accept the Bible as a history book, it's about the Israelites invading and taking the land from those who lived there. There's no original claim there.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Nor is there anything particularly nasty, as weaponry goes, about cluster bombs and bomblets, Hippikos. Only those of little experience of war are going to get extra-specially wound up about this weapon or that being used and on whomever.

Even on Fox News, I noticed rather a lot of that going on, even among newsies who seemed old enough to know better.

The weapons all still blast you, get you all bloody, smack you around, and hurt a lot. A good many of them are deafeningly loud as well. I also don't particularly expect rationality about deciding whether it's napalm or phosgene that is beyond the martial pale.

[Ibby]

God fucking dammit, tw, what the hell do you fucking have against cussing and shit? I mean fuck, man, are you like, a total son of a motherfucking bitch, you damn bastard?

..Kidding, of course. Before you freak out at me. I know you regard emotion as an unwanted malfunction.

EDIT: wow, 'wacko' used a buncha times...
Your use of the word 'wacko' shows that you are going for an emotional response... Emotions baaaaad! Bad tw. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

[Hippikos]

With some archaelogical support, unless you try and dismiss the Biblical Archaeological Review as a monthly fantasy magazine or something. As for Moslem religious claims, they have a heavy flavor of Muhammed-come-lately to them. No way would they have primacy. Also no particular reason to call for throwing them out, either.

My archaelogical support is that the population in Palestine (jews and arabs) lived there peacefully for centuries, while the Zionists base their claim on the 80 years Kingdom of David and Solomon, 3000 years ago. The US has to return a lot of territory to the Indians with your logic, maybe even where you live right now?

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate.

Duh...that's what I'm trying to tell MaggieL all time...

If you are currently active in EOD work, Hippikos, then and only then may you talk shit to me about UXO. Unless you are currently active in EOD work, you've got no call to kick. Nor would it hurt to spell "berserk" or "Katyusha" right [stress the first syllable, btw, KAHT-yusha... can't tell you why the Russians called a bombardment rocket "Kathie," but they did]. If you're going to piss people off, don't do it stupidly -- we tend to put your balls in the Osterizer and hit "pulse."

Are you so desperate that you have to resort to spelling nitpicking and keyboard warrier tough talk now, Professor UG? Is that all you've got left to discuss? The only thing that's in the Osterizer is your credibillity.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerilla

Bombs, period, are indiscriminate.

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Duh...that's what I'm trying to tell MaggieL all time...

Again we fail to distinguish the distinguishable when the confusion benefits trying to establish moral equivalance where in fact there is none.

Even UG's gravity bomb can be fairly precicely targeted, when compared with an unguided or crudely guided rocket warhead Since we're talking WW II-era tech in the case of what Iran gives to Hezbollah, compare UG's 500-pounder delivered from, say, an altitude of 2,000 feet using a Norden bombsight with the Vergeltungswaffe-I (no accident they're called vengance weapons) or -II. This *is* rocket science, you know...and to use anything less primitive than the most random weapons Iran had to provide Hezbollah with crews as well as the weapons and launchers themselves. But it's still a total crapshoot...just at a longer range.

An unguided rocket is vastly more indiscriminate than an aimed gravity bomb, which is itself more indiscriminate than, say, a sniper firing from concealment with a match-grade .30-06 and a 10x scope, who can drop one selected target while leaving five others standing around him. I think what UG meant to say is that once you're standing next to one, the effects of most UXO losing their "U" status are similar.

I'm refrring to the amount of discrimination used in the attack. A suicide bomber can walk right into a selected pizza shop befoire detonating (assuming he doesn't panic and push the button at a security checkpoint). He *can* discriminate, he just doesn't give a shit; all Israelis are his targets, and any one will do. The same is true of Hezbollah.

A typical liberal will try to distract you by painting a picture of how powerful a weapon is to prevent you from contemplating how horrible the intent of an assailant is. That's as true in this case as it is in gun confiscation debates here in the US...a liberal will take away your legal handgun while leaving the criminals armed, just as Kofi Annan insists the Israelis withdraw and drop their blockade without demanding anything like compliance from Iran, Syria and their Hezbollah henchmen.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

A typical liberal will try to distract you by painting a picture of how powerful a weapon is to prevent you from contemplating how horrible the intent of an assailant is.

And the intent of a cluster bomb is to render a large area uninhabitable by civilians or the enemy until cleared, placing not only the enemy who are immediately occupying the area at risk, but returning civilians after the conflict is over.

This makes the use of the weapon more a matter of collective punishment than purely tactical.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by richlevy

And the intent of a cluster bomb is to render a large area uninhabitable by civilians or the enemy until cleared,...

Not all "cluster bombs" are the same, so you can't attribute the same intent to them all.

Can you cite a credible reference that indicates that the Israelis have used delay-fused submunitions against an arguably-civillian target in this conflict?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Not all "cluster bombs" are the same, so you can't attribute the same intent to them all.

Can you cite a credible reference that indicates that the Israelis have used delay-fused submunitions against an arguably-civillian target in this conflict?

From CNN.

Since a U.N.-brokered cease-fire took hold August 14, eight Lebanese have been killed by exploding ordnance, including two children, and 38 people have been wounded, according to a U.N. count.

"A lot of them are in civilian areas, on farmland and in people's homes. We're finding a lot at the entrances to houses, on balconies and roofs," Farran said. "Sometimes windows are broken, and they get inside the houses."

Maybe they mistook the garden gnome for a Hezbollah militant?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Are you so desperate that you have to resort to spelling nitpicking and keyboard warrier tough talk now, Professor UG?

IOW, you're not in EOD. You've lost this one; now have the grace to shut the fuck up and sit down. However tough you think you are, I'm probably tougher, likely wiser, probably older and more experienced, and I spell like someone who's paying attention. I'm simply saying I'm not putting up with nonsense from you. There's no shame in that for either of us.

Turning to tw's arguments, such as they are -- they still all boil down to "I hate the Republicans to an irrational degree because they won't bow to the Communist International or something" -- he's spinning, trying with all his might to get this war with unfreedom's minions lost as soon as may be. Therefore, no one should take his advice, or believe what he tells them.

[Hippikos]

MaggieL is going out of her way and twisting in the most impossible turns to prove that cluster bombs are justified because they have a precision of 3 football fields instead of one village.

In order to use your phraseology; The Israeli doesn't give a shit that civil population will be harmed by the cluster bombs, because they had absolutely no clue where the ka-ty-ushas were being launched when they dropped the cluster bombs.

From Iraq experience we and Israel knew that at least 50% of the bomblets will not explode on impact but in a later stage when picked up or stumbled upon.

And why do you think US State Department will investigate the use of their cluster bombs?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

MaggieL is going out of her way and twisting in the most impossible turns to prove that cluster bombs are justified because they have a precision of 3 football fields instead of one village.

So we're up to *three* football fields now? It was two last time. Will it be four on the next round? Since you're so jiggy with the effective radius, what's the CEP on one of these delivered from an F-16?

And for comparison, a typical Hezbollah rocket?

(Hint, the first is measured in meters, the second in kilometers)

Originally Posted by Hippikos

From Iraq experience we and Israel knew that at least 50% of the bomblets will not explode on impact but in a later stage when picked up or stumbled upon.

The actual number is more like 5%. Where are you getting your numbers?

Originally Posted by Hippikos

And why do you think US State Department will investigate the use of their cluster bombs?

Because there have been complaints thet they've been misused....not exactly surprising.

And who will investigate what Hezbollah has been doing? Oh...that's right...