Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[Hippikos]

From the Horse´s mouth, MaggieL:

"In Lebanon, we covered entire villages with cluster bombs, what we did there was crazy and monstrous," testifies a commander in the Israel Defense Forces' MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System) unit. Quoting his battalion commander, he said the IDF fired some 1,800 cluster rockets on Lebanon during the war and they contained over 1.2 million cluster bombs. The IDF also used cluster shells fired by 155 mm artillery cannons, so the number of cluster bombs fired on Lebanon is even higher. At the same time, soldiers in the artillery corps testified that the IDF used phosphorous shells, which many experts say is prohibited by international law. According to the claims, the overwhelming majority of the weapons mentioned were fired during the last ten days of the war.

The commander asserted that there was massive use of MLRS rockets despite the fact that they are known to be very inaccurate - the rockets' deviation from the target reaches to around 1,200 meters - and that a substantial percentage do not explode and become mines. Due to these facts, most experts view cluster ammunitions as a "non-discerning" weapon that is prohibited for use in a civilian environment. The percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the U.S. army in Iraq reached 30 percent and the United Nations' land mine removal team in Lebanon claims that the percentage of duds among the rockets fired by the IDF reaches some 40 percent. In light of these figures, the number of duds left behind by the Israeli cluster rockets in Lebanon is likely to reach half a million.

According to the commander, in order to compensate for the rockets' imprecision, the order was to "flood" the area with them. "We have no option of striking an isolated target, and the commanders know this very well," he said. He also stated that the reserve soldiers were surprised by the use of MLRS rockets, because during their regular army service, they were told these are the IDF's "judgment day weapons" and intended for use in a full-scale war.

The commander also said that at least in one case, they were asked to fire cluster rockets toward "a village's outskirts" in the early morning: "They told us that this is a good time because people are coming out of the mosques and the rockets would deter them." In other cases, they fired the rockets at a range of less than 15 kilometers, even though the manufacturer's guidelines state that firing at this range considerably increases the number of duds. The commander further related that during IDF training exercises hardly any live rockets are fired, for fear that they would leave duds behind and fill the IDF's firing grounds with mines.
"

More here...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hippikos, I deleted the duplicate post.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

From the Horse´s mouth...

An unattributed, anonymous quote isn't exactly "the horses mouth". And a Google search of Meron Rappaport's work casts serious doubt on his objectivity.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

An unattributed, anonymous quote isn't exactly "the horses mouth". And a Google search of Meron Rappaport's work casts serious doubt on his objectivity.

Your reference to objectivity makes me laugh. And as usual you're attacking the writer and not the article itself. Haaretz is a respected long lasting paper. What has been written connects seamlessly with what has been found in Lebanon, or do you deny cluster bombs have been found?

[Ibby]

So, tw, what would YOU propose that Israel do, instead?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

So, tw, what would YOU propose that Israel do, instead?

Israel had numerous and more intelligent options. For example, Israel could have done what so many previous and far more militant Prime Ministers have done: negotiate for release of two kidnapped soldiers. Problem solved. That was all anyone expected.

Or Israel could have done a complete opposite - move in with massive military force in that limited region south of the Latani River.

Israel did neither. Israel instead did what only the military naive would do. They attacked all Lebanese people in some silly (literally perverted) belief that if they attacked all of Lebanon, then the Lebanese army would attack Hezbollah.

As posted repeatedly, Israeli Air Force did indiscriminate attacks on anyone - including unjustified, numerous attacks on Beirut Airport - as if that too were a Hezbollah stronghold. They routinely attacked even well marked Red Cross and Red Crescent convoys - even attacked innocent civilians north and moving north of the Latani River. That fact is not deniable (although I expect UT to deny it).

Israel's own general was again promoting a failed agenda that did not work in Somaliland, WWII, or Vietnam.

Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone
Victory is not a matter of seizing territory, ... It is a matter of “consciousness”.

And so Israel - without even ground controllers - attacked targets all over Lebanon to somehow change Lebanese consciousness. Innocent civilians get attacked near where Hezbollah once was? Good. Change of consciousness. Attack cities in every Lebanese province - even most northern cities. Good. Change of consciousness. That is not how a logical and honest military man achieves strategic or tactical victory. And that is why Israel lost in a seventh invasion of Lebanon. Israel had plenty of options and yet took a most stupid military action. Isreal did not even get their two soliers back.

In direct contradiction to what MaggieL posts - and she knows better - Israeli warplane were not just attacking missile launchers. Freely using cluster bombs maybe in direct violation of conditions upon which the US provides those bombs. Israel was attacking unseen and estimated targets to 'change consciousness'. Killing Lebanese civilians even in most northern Akkar was justified because they were not attacking an enemy. Target was 'change consciousness' which means indiscriminate attacks on civilians is not only justified. It is necessary.

Even Sharon did not do anything so stupid and therefore got back his kidnapped soldiers. Sharon traded prisoners for soldiers. No problem. A well proven solution so easy, without pain, and involving no retaliatory attacks. Instead Israel still does not have their soldiers and has now recruited massive numbers of future terrorists to hate both Israel and the United States. Who was the dummy? Same military that thought 'changing consciousness' with air attacks would somehow win a war?

Ibram - the stupidity of Israel's actions should be obvious to everyone here. It should be obvious to everyone - and MaggieL even knows this - that Israel warplane could not tell innocent people from rocket launchers. Their orders were don't care. Even their targets all over Lebanon were 'change consciousness'. If Israel wanted a military solution, then Israel should have moved in full force, many infantry divisions, and been ready for about 1000 casualties. Military solutions are necessary because Israel will not even negotiate with an adversary - classic 'big dic' thinking. However, same mindset should also accept massive Israel dead because only the objective matters. Instead it was so much easier to attack Lebanese civilians to 'change consciousness'. Attack Arabs since they are all niggers anyway. Don't fool yourself. That attitude - encouraged by George Jr’s administration and by Christian extremist Zionists - is why more wars are necessary despite smarter options.

Ibram - not only do I provide multiple and far more intelligent options. I also defined the consequences of a pathetically stupid Israeli invasion - complete with no soldiers returned and recruiting of more smart people into the ranks of extremist. You tell me what was accomplished by indiscriminate bombing.

[JayMcGee]

Nice ploy, Ibram, but.....


the onus is still on Israel to justify the OTT reaction to a common-place kidnapping of Israeli troops. (Forget the rockets - they happened later).

Dou you play chess? When you move kings' pawn forward in the standard opening, do you then overturn the board when your opponent refuses the standard reply?

That's what the IDF did - kicked over the chess-board.

[Ibby]

Ah, but this isn't chess. Israel's response WAS disproportionate, but what incentive did they have to be proportionate?

[JayMcGee]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Ah, but this isn't chess. Israel's response WAS disproportionate, but what incentive did they have to be proportionate?

what? I'll blow the shit out of them because I can?

was that a serious question? why should they be proportionate?

your logic leads to Armageddon.
.

[xoxoxoBruce]

So you keep walking by, stepping on my toes each time, and you think it would be disproportionate of me to jump up and beat the shit out of you?

I suggest you be more careful walking because you're in for a big disproportionate surprise.

[Ibby]

It's not MY logic, it's theirs. I'm all for proportion -- or even better, not getting in the fight in the first place. I argue both sides because I think both are wrong.

I think of this kind of like... a tough, streetwise stray dog getting his food dish taken by a trained attack dog, then picking a fight to get it back. Yes, the stray shouldnt've picked the fight, but he did, and the attack dog shouldnt tear the throat out of the stray, but he probably will. It's simply what they do.

Been thinking about the original for some time &... well..so what?
Bet they have some shoes made in China too.

[Hippikos]

If there are any Zelzal-2s left intact in Lebanon (if there were any to begin with, and there's considerable dispute about that) they were probably what the cluster bombs were used on; anti-materiel/anti-armor is what they're best at. Assuming first that they did ever cross the border and second weren't destroyed by the IDF, they still aren't available to Hezbollah apparently because they're dual-keyed, and can only be launched on command from the Iranian crews (of whom there aren't any in Lebanon, right?). It's the most implausible "plausible deniability" I've ever seen...the old shell game again: Hezbollah "has" missles but can't launch them...but if they *are* launched Iran will blame Hezbollah.

You don't even believe when Iran admits itself? Usually you blame the Iranians for everything, this must be the mother of implausible plausible deniabilities...

Probably it'll never reach your with zionist propaganda infested mind, but Hezbollah does have a great deal of autonomy, just as Israel does not everything for the US.

It might occur to you, although I don't think you have ever thought of that, that the Zelzal2's (and there are more) will be used in case Israel has the disastrous idea of bombing Iran. In that case Hezbollah will use these missiles as retaliation. Iran and Hezbollah are allies, same like US and Israel. That's how the world goes around MaggieL, like in the days of the Cold War, when the USSR and the USA divided the world in blocks.

Yep, NKorea is working with Iran together. It is already for years. They were both used in the "Axis of Evil" speach of Junior. You can hardly expect that they will sit back and relax. Khatami/Khamenei have repeatedly offered to negotiate in 2002 and 2003, even to share important al-Qaeda information, but Bush, blinded by the "Mission Accomplished" syndrom, did not accept any contact. Too bad, the situation would be much better now.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

You don't even believe when Iran admits itself?

Is it that actually an admission against interest, or is it mere bragging for residual propeganda value after the missiles have been destroyed?

There's no way to know...but either way it appears certain that Hezbollah did not have control over any Zelzal-2s, so they can hardly be given credit for not launching them. That Iran won't give them control supports the notion that they would use them if they could...which is what I said originally.

Iran's forbearance is only so as to not start a direct war with Israel prematurely: i.e. before they have nukes. I have to wonder if the Iranian U enrichment program at this point isn't mostly to give NK deniability if Iran detonates a nuke bought from NK in Israel. (Or as a back up if Kim Il Sung finds some way to self-destruct.)

Iran could probably deliver it in a rental truck. This has the virtue of not being rocket science; it's embarassing to lose a nuke because your rocket went haywire. And imagine the honor of being the first nuclear suicide bomber! I wonder how many virgins you get for that?

Obviously this is all Bush's fault; he's already been told all he has to do is have everybody convert to Islam and we'll all live in peace under the New Caliphate. What a stubborn fool.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

And imagine the honor of being the first nuclear suicide bomber! I wonder how many virgins you get for that?

Was not what the Beatles had in mind when they wrote Imagine.