California on the Brink

[TheMercenary]

I want them to go bankrupt and issue IOU's. Just to show that their socialist experiment failed.

[TheMercenary]

Let them move to total anarchy. I would relish it.

[Bullitt]

I wouldn't. My entire family lives in Southern California, I was born there and I wish to go back for good soon. Just as with many people across America, there are tons of folks in California who had no hand in this budgetary mess, my family included. So I think I'm allowed to be a bit offended when people just write off the whole state and everyone in it. "Let it burn", "Fuck em", etc. No, fuck you.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Didn't have a hand in it? Didn't stand by while their elected representatives went politically correct, hog wild, with unsustainable spending programs for special interests? Judging state programs by what's in it for me, rather than what's fair to everyone, and good for the fiscal health of the state? Not stopping the deluge of illegal aliens that are devouring the state?

Every state has fiscal problems this year, so we've got our own shit to worry about. We've got our own asshole politicians and misspent shortfalls to straighten out.

[slang]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

I wouldn't. My entire family lives in Southern California, I was born there and I wish to go back for good soon. Just as with many people across America, there are tons of folks in California who had no hand in this budgetary mess, my family included. So I think I'm allowed to be a bit offended when people just write off the whole state and everyone in it. "Let it burn", "Fuck em", etc. No, fuck you.

Yes, I do know that there are good people there in Cali. They number in the millions if not tens of millions. I've met many reasonable people that are residents there.

Could we possibly bail those people out? Selectively? No. So what are we left with? Allowing the entire system to collapse to give reasonable people the opportunity to take control again. Bailing out the current system will only give us more of what we have seen in the past 10+ years.

Consider this. Grey Davis supposedly drove the state into fiscal chaos and was replaced by "The Governator". I honestly thought Arnold could change things there and cut the spending to sustainable levels.

That was a very silly idea, that somehow one party might be able to make a difference more than the other. What they need IMO is a complete re-org. A reboot. At that point the normal folks might be a bit more aggressive at getting things right.

So that's for the "Let them fail" side of the argument.

What do you seriously think will change with a Cali bailout? And for that matter an Indiana, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, etc bailout package?

It seems reasonable with the recent history here with the Feds that the thinking would be;

"Hey, they went along with that bullshit bailout....now let's get a bigger one"!

So, those normal people in Cali, like your family, will see hard times in the short term with a gov't failure. Most likely in ways that we've not seen in the US here in 80 years or so.

Why not prepare for the fall and take it knowing that it's going to happen. It's not a question of if but when. California, as well as many other states are completely unsustainable and completely out of control. The entire USA actually.

As for being offended, yes that's your "right" I suppose but this is the Cellar.

Do you believe that I've never been offended by what I read here?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Didn't have a hand in it? Didn't stand by while their elected representatives went politically correct, hog wild, with unsustainable spending programs for special interests? Judging state programs by what's in it for me, rather than what's fair to everyone, and good for the fiscal health of the state? Not stopping the deluge of illegal aliens that are devouring the state?

Every state has fiscal problems this year, so we've got our own shit to worry about. We've got our own asshole politicians and misspent shortfalls to straighten out.

The illegal alien problem is failing because the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T PUNISHING THE CORPORATIONS/PEOPLE WHO ARE HIRING THEM. It is a failure of CAPITALISM, NOT SOCIALISM.

[jinx]

Bullshit. The problem is the resources they are using, not the paychecks a few are collecting.

[BrianR]

I had a nice long diatribe going but the crappy connection monster got it.

I'll try to get my steam back up and repost it later, hunny-do list permitting.

Suffice it to say I vote to let CA fail and pick up the pieces later.

[Aliantha]

My state is in debt too. I don't think there's even a suggestion that the federal government should bail us out.

I think we should 'bail out' the current state government, even though the problems we're having now are mostly because of poor leadership by the previous premier who basically controlled everything and everyone in his cabinet.

[Aliantha]

I suppose if no one hired illegals they wouldn't come over the border so much would they?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I suppose if no one hired illegals they wouldn't come over the border so much would they?

Which is the case; the illegal influx is down in proportion to the dip in the economy and likewise the dip in hiring. By no means is it enough to wipe the problem out, but then really the United States doesn't have an immigration problem so much as other countries have a middle class problem: they have to generate one, and how are they going to do it? If the countries we have an immigration problem from were to grow middle classes large enough to be visible without magnification, we'd stop having much of a situation with people trying to break in to the place to partake of its opportunties.

I can't name another country that suffers from this problem, let alone the problem on this dozen-million-people scale.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The EU is having the same problem, remember Paris burning?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Which is the case; the illegal influx is down in proportion to the dip in the economy and likewise the dip in hiring. By no means is it enough to wipe the problem out, but then really the United States doesn't have an immigration problem so much as other countries have a middle class problem: they have to generate one, and how are they going to do it? If the countries we have an immigration problem from were to grow middle classes large enough to be visible without magnification, we'd stop having much of a situation with people trying to break in to the place to partake of its opportunties.

I can't name another country that suffers from this problem, let alone the problem on this dozen-million-people scale.

I agree. And NAFTA was supposed to address that problem, but instead it created an even bigger problem with illegal immigration, which is why I believe there should be a WORLD STANDARD for environmental issues, and work standards and ethics, and pay scales. IF there was a world standard, then corporations would not be able to go to a third world country and pollute the crap out of their environoment, or use slave labor in order to line their pockets. Since globalization is a done deal, we really need to start focusing on how to create a more balanced, fair, sustainable future for ALL people.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I agree. And NAFTA was supposed to address that problem, but instead it created an even bigger problem with illegal immigration, which is why I believe there should be a WORLD STANDARD for environmental issues, and work standards and ethics, and pay scales.

You have an astonishing degree of faith in extremes of big government. Time and experience will completely cure this. The world does not work like that. See "people ruin everything" as more than something on a T-shirt but a basis for an active working principle of what nations and politics can do, and what they simply can't.

IF there was a world standard, then corporations would not be able to go to a third world country and pollute the crap out of their environoment, or use slave labor in order to line their pockets. Since globalization is a done deal, we really need to start focusing on how to create a more balanced, fair, sustainable future for ALL people.

Economically quite ignorant. Inequalities in distribution of income are simply the natural outcome of human nature and fortune. "Equality Of Result" is less Socialism's Utopian goal than it is the reason Socialism fails and will always fail. Socialism is a faithless and impoverished bitch, and only the slow of mind ever put their faith in her.

I don't. Guess I'm just not slow enough between the ears.

When you discover that a "balanced, fair, sustainable future for ALL" is not only readily, but actually most, possible under capitalism, not under the bureaucratic approach socialism must take (Was there ever a Socialist economy that was "sustainable"? They have fallen, been abandoned, and so forth.), then you are inoculated against one of the great Lies of the Left. Until that happy day, your thinking is so unrealistic and anti-wealth as to verge on pathological. See, the Lie of the Left contends that wealth is zero-sum -- it is not, not on a planetary scale at any rate -- and that success must equal cheating, which is simply boneheaded. There is nothing in Capitalism that requires cheating anybody. You're clearly unaware that you can practice capitalism according to scrupulous ethics and do damned well in the process. Put that to the test if you think I'm talking through my hat, I dare you!

Since my thinking diverges so far from yours, it sounds like my thinking is both more adult and saner, doesn't it?

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You have an astonishing degree of faith in extremes of big government. Time and experience will completely cure this. The world does not work like that. See "people ruin everything" as more than something on a T-shirt but a basis for an active working principle of what nations and politics can do, and what they simply can't.

Why then do you have so much faith in corporations? Don't people run those as well? And we see where it's gotten us when we allow them to just do whatever they want. I would put faith in the government over unregulated business any day.

Economically quite ignorant. Inequalities in distribution of income are simply the natural outcome of human nature and fortune. "Equality Of Result" is less Socialism's Utopian goal than it is the reason Socialism fails and will always fail. Socialism is a faithless and impoverished bitch, and only the slow of mind ever put their faith in her.

I don't. Guess I'm just not slow enough between the ears.

When you discover that a "balanced, fair, sustainable future for ALL" is not only readily, but actually most, possible under capitalism, not under the bureaucratic approach socialism must take (Was there ever a Socialist economy that was "sustainable"? They have fallen, been abandoned, and so forth.), then you are inoculated against one of the great Lies of the Left. Until that happy day, your thinking is so unrealistic and anti-wealth as to verge on pathological. See, the Lie of the Left contends that wealth is zero-sum -- it is not, not on a planetary scale at any rate -- and that success must equal cheating, which is simply boneheaded. There is nothing in Capitalism that requires cheating anybody. You're clearly unaware that you can practice capitalism according to scrupulous ethics and do damned well in the process. Put that to the test if you think I'm talking through my hat, I dare you!

Since my thinking diverges so far from yours, it sounds like my thinking is both more adult and saner, doesn't it?

Since when did I ever say everyone should earn the same amount? Of course there will always be inequalities in wealth distribution, the problem I have is the SIZE of the inequality. It never ceases to amaze me how people can argue against a fair and living wage for the masses of people, while at the same time arguing why it is fair for top executives to earn obscene amounts of money, many of which really don't deserve it.

While we're on this subject, you really should check out Bill Moyers most recent episode on PBS. He interviews an insider from the health insurance industry. Honestly, if you are pissed off after watching that, something is seriously wrong with you.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html