20th Anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall

[Radar]

Originally Posted by classicman

right back atcha pal

Bush was there when the wall fell.

Reagan was there when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Neither of them was responsible for either of those things.


Radar Classicman

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Radar

...the same way he tried to take credit for the release of the Iranian hostages which he also had NOTHING to do with.

Now that right there is funny. Read 'Guests of the Ayatollah,' by Mark Bowden. I don't think I ever heard that he claimed directly to have had anything to do with the release of the hostages, although there may have been plenty of propaganda about that he in someway was directly involved. But to be clear on the fact this one is clear, on January 20, 1981, Reagan was sworn into office and within minutes all of the hostages were released. I believe, as I think most do, there was indirect pressure. There is no clear evidence either way.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I hate to interrupt this pissing match, but I wanted to thank glatt for sharing his impressions of cold war Germany. Thanks glatt.

[Radar]

Reagan had nothing to do with the negotiations with Iran to release the hostages, though later he did sell arms to Iran and had the CIA bring cocaine into America to raise money for the Contras.

Carter is responsible for the release of the hostages, and Iran was so pissed at him, they decided to release the hostages on Reagan's inauguration day as a final "fuck you" to Carter

[TheMercenary]

Just the idea of scooting around Germany in a VW Bus is appealing. What I wouldn't give to have one of those babies in mint condition. Well I wouldn't give to much but it is a nice thought.

http://www.cartype.com/pics/297/full/vw_bus_draw_59.jpg

[xoxoxoBruce]

VW ~ Virtually Worthless.

People driving VWs, back in the day, were like people driving Priuses today, always in the way.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

VW ~ Virtually Worthless.

People driving VWs, back in the day, were like people driving Priuses today, always in the way.

Don't know about the Priuses, but it's true about the old VW's. Although on my parent's last jaunt to Europe, they bought a VW Synchro (that's a 4WD) Vanagon that had a retrofitted Porsche engine in it. That one was able to keep up on the autobahn.

[Radar]

Did you hear about the VW Van in mint condition that was stolen 35 years ago and just recovered?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/06/....vw/index.html

[Radar]

Doesn't Volkswagen own/manufacture Audi? Now those are great cars. I love the Audi A8, and I really love the Audi R8. I wish I could afford either of them.

[TheMercenary]

I did hear that story. Crazy.

@Bruce. You crazy man?!?! My VW bug was never in the way, nor was it like a Pussyrius.

I did a complete pan up restoration of a second one in 1993 of a 78 Super Beetle. Great car, hauled ass.

[TheMercenary]

Ok, maybe about the old buses but my bugs always scooted around nicely. We did own a VW Vanagon new in 1985 and loved it but as a fourbanger, like it's ancestors, pick up lacked. Heaven help you if you were going up a steep hill.

[glatt]

They were fine, unless you had 6 people in the bus and a bunch of luggage and you were going over the continental divide. Then you were going 45 on the highway. Usually, there would be a truck chugging up the hill too, and you could slip in behind it and blend in.

It is also a time to remember the leaders of the grass roots pro-democracy movements that were born and flourished at the time....leaders like Baerbel Bohley in East Germany, Lech Welesa and the solidarity movement in Poland, Vaclev Havel and the Czech intellectual movement and even that drunken Russian fool, Boris Yeltsun.

It was at great personal risk that they and their followers contributed to the fall of Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by classicman

Am I the only one who remembers this day and how absolutely amazing it seemed as it was happening?
I'm a little surprised that no on has mentioned this.

I was on vacation with Pete's New Hampshire family including her very well read Navy Vet uncle. We drank a lot, talked a lot, and worried a bit because of the potentential for chaos if any of the East Block true believers decided it needed to stop. I don't know how much emphasis this event was given in schools. It was a spell-binding moment that lead to a completely different world which many cold warriors still can't get a handle on.

[classicman]

Some people think Obama should have been there representing us instead of a subordinate. Guess it wasn't important enough.

World leaders past and present will be in Berlin today for the 20th anniversary of the fall of communist repression's most visible symbol: the 112-mile concrete wall that split the city for more than a quarter-century.

Conspicuously absent: the president of the United States, Barack Obama.

Obama's folks say he's too busy to accept German President Angela Merkel's invitation to attend today's festivities.

It's pathetic that Obama won't be there -- and telling, as well.

After all, it was one of his own supposed heroes, President John F. Kennedy, who famously flew to Berlin in 1963 and denounced the wall as "an affront to history" when he memorably proclaimed to all the world: "Ich bin ein Berliner."

And it was another predecessor, Ronald Reagan, who even more famously stood before the heinous barrier and declared: "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

But, then, Reagan -- like JFK -- viewed the Cold War as a defining battle between freedom and oppressive totalitarianism. And it was a war, he said, that the West, led by America, had to win.

For Reagan, that meant ongoing confrontation with what he rightly called "the Evil Empire." By openly declaring that America would never allow the Soviet bloc to triumph, he paved the way for the collapse not only of the Berlin Wall but of communism itself.

It was also, he understood, the triumph of American exceptionalism, leadership and strength.

All of which runs counter to Obama's view of America's global role -- and how to deal with adversaries.

Link

Despite the mind-boggling number of issues he must attend to – was it a mistake for President Obama to refrain from traveling to Germany for the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall?

According to Le Figaro’s chief editorialist, Pierre Rousselin, President Obama not only missed a chance to demonstrate the strength of democracy, he showed how low Europe is on his list of priorities.

For Le Figaro, Pierre Rousselin writes in part:

“The absence of Barack Obama in Berlin yesterday, among the leaders of countries which have been central to our history, is a telling confirmation of his indifference toward a continent that is no longer a priority for the United States.

“But it was also a missed opportunity: the fall of the Berlin Wall symbolizes the firmness of democracies in the face of oppression. America, like Europe, should be inspired by this event to tear down all walls, in Iran, Afghanistan, the Middle East and elsewhere.”

On November 9, 1989, the Berlin Wall fell and Central and Eastern Europeans were freed from the constraints of communism. Twenty years later, the world that President Obama inherited from Ronald Reagan’s legacy is profoundly changed. Those suffering under planned economies and the denial civil rights are now living in free market economies and democracies. On the twentieth anniversary of this historic day Obama was absent. Instead, he sent his Secretary of State to Berlin in his place. Dr. Nile Gardiner points out that the administration added further insult to injury when Secretary Clinton ended her speech with a tribute to President Obama’s commitment to diversity and breaking down barriers to discrimination. Displaying an air of indifference and narcissism in no way endears Central and Eastern Europe to the United States.

Perhaps Obama should pay more attention to America’s greatest European allies in their unfinished quest for equality and prosperity. In the wake of the twentieth anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, The Pew Global Attitudes Project released their report, “Two Decades after the Wall’s Fall: End of Communism Cheered but Now with More Reservations.” The report reveals that those people of “former Iron Curtain countries generally look back approvingly at the collapse of communism” and the majorities of people in most former Soviet republics and Eastern European countries endorse the emergence of multiparty systems and a free market economy.” However, since 1991 when the original survey was conducted, “the initial widespread enthusiasm about these changes has dimmed in most of the countries surveyed.”

I hadn't looked at it as a lost opportunity . . . interesting perspective.