I think, therefore I am. - Page 2

jimhelm · 06-15-2011, 01:07 PM

I just think the distinction between the thinker and the thoughts is interesting.

footfootfoot · 06-18-2011, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimhelm

I just think the distinction between the thinker and the thoughts is interesting.

From the Emmei Juku Kannon Gyo:
(Kannon or Kanzeon, also Quan Yin, the bodhisattva of compassion)

Kanzeon! Salutation and veneration to the Buddha!
We are one with the Buddha
In cause and effect related to all Buddhas
and to Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

Our true nature is
Eternal, Joyous, Selfless and Pure.
Mornings, my thought is Kanzeon;
Evenings, my thought is Kanzeon.
Thought after thought arises in mind.
Thought after thought is not separate from mind.

classicman · 06-15-2011, 01:17 PM

You gotta elaborate Jim - It seems pretty straightforward that for there to be a thought there must, therefore, be a thinker.

jimhelm · 06-15-2011, 01:47 PM

yes, but thought is not required for existence to be real.

So, while it is true that you must exist in order to think, the thought is not proof of existence. You can exist ...in fact you DO, separately from your thoughts. You can observe the fact that you are 'thinking'... and doing so is a thought in itself... but ....

Sometimes, I think of it like a book with words on the pages. You are the book and the pages. The thoughts are the words.

Happy Monkey · 06-15-2011, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimhelm

yes, but thought is not required for existence to be real.

No, but existence is required for thought.

Quote:

So, while it is true that you must exist in order to think, the thought is not proof of existence.

Um, if you must exist in order to think, then thought IS proof of existence.

Quote:

You can observe the fact that you are 'thinking'... and doing so is a thought in itself... but ....

That "thought in itself" is the one referred to by Descartes that proves existence.

"I think therefore I am" is true, but it cannot be used to derive any other truths. To use your analogy, if a book contains words then it exists, but you know absolutely nothing else about the book or the words.

(A book that doesn't contain words can also exist, but cogito, ergo sum has nothing to say on that subject.)

jimhelm · 06-15-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No, but existence is required for thought.
Um, if you must exist in order to think, then thought IS proof of existence.That

You're right, of course. I was trying to say that the thought is not the ONLY proof of existence.

I'd have better luck applying that logic to disproving "I am, therefore I think" I guess..

classicman · 06-15-2011, 01:49 PM

I don't smoke anymore, so ....

jimhelm · 06-15-2011, 01:59 PM

laf

classicman · 06-15-2011, 02:11 PM

wut he sed ... I think

Spexxvet · 06-15-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skysidhe

I do not have to be in a state of 'thinkingness' to know I exist.

If you hit your thumb with a hammer, it hurts like hell. The fact that it hurts like hell tells you, you are quite alive and I bet there isn't any philosophical pondering over it either.

You can dream or hallucinate hitting your thumb with a hammer. You might feel real, even though the action didn't "exist."

skysidhe · 06-15-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

You can dream or hallucinate hitting your thumb with a hammer. You might feel real, even though the action didn't "exist."

I'm not getting the connection between the philosophical statement and subconscious dreams and mental illnesses

Just color me stuuupid.

wolf · 06-15-2011, 04:26 PM

Curious Yellow is not an option on the poll. I am therefore not sure how to respond.

ZenGum · 06-16-2011, 12:34 AM

Union regulations prevent me from responding to this questions unless I am paid for it.

Aliantha · 06-16-2011, 01:07 AM

Wow, this thread reminds me of one of my earlier courses at uni. lol

We never really found an answer there either.

skysidhe · 06-16-2011, 12:54 PM

I think the statement annoys me.

I am annoyed, therefore I must exist!

I chose not to think about why it annoys me. I have free will. I must exist!

I take a shower and someone turns the water on in another part of the house which leads to shrieking from either ice cold water or scalding hot water. I know I exist!

I wonder how bored a person must be to sit and ponder ones own existence, then to finally come to the conclusion that the fact they are thinking at all is proof of ones own existence. sheesh

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06-15-2011, 01:07 PM	#1
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	I just think the distinction between the thinker and the thoughts is interesting. __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

06-15-2011, 01:17 PM	#3
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	You gotta elaborate Jim - It seems pretty straightforward that for there to be a thought there must, therefore, be a thinker. __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-15-2011, 01:47 PM	#4
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	yes, but thought is not required for existence to be real. So, while it is true that you must exist in order to think, the thought is not proof of existence. You can exist ...in fact you DO, separately from your thoughts. You can observe the fact that you are 'thinking'... and doing so is a thought in itself... but .... Sometimes, I think of it like a book with words on the pages. You are the book and the pages. The thoughts are the words. __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

06-15-2011, 01:49 PM	#7
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	I don't smoke anymore, so .... __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-15-2011, 01:59 PM	#8
jimhelm a beautiful fool Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 39.939705 Posts: 4,504	laf __________________ There's a Shadow just behind me. Shrouding every step I take. Making every promise empty, pointing every finger at me. _tool

06-15-2011, 02:11 PM	#9
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	wut he sed ... I think __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

06-15-2011, 04:26 PM	#12
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Curious Yellow is not an option on the poll. I am therefore not sure how to respond. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

06-16-2011, 12:34 AM	#13
ZenGum Doctor Wtf Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Badelaide, Baustralia Posts: 12,861	Union regulations prevent me from responding to this questions unless I am paid for it. __________________ Shut up and hug. MoreThanPretty, Nov 5, 2008. Just because I'm nominally polite, does not make me a pussy. Sundae Girl.

06-16-2011, 01:07 AM	#14
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Wow, this thread reminds me of one of my earlier courses at uni. lol We never really found an answer there either. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

06-16-2011, 12:54 PM	#15
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	I think the statement annoys me. I am annoyed, therefore I must exist! I chose not to think about why it annoys me. I have free will. I must exist! I take a shower and someone turns the water on in another part of the house which leads to shrieking from either ice cold water or scalding hot water. I know I exist! I wonder how bored a person must be to sit and ponder ones own existence, then to finally come to the conclusion that the fact they are thinking at all is proof of ones own existence. sheesh

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