Why we fight. Guilt?

[Undertoad]

Things don't get better overnight. I'm not going to seek through my browser history to find cites for you, but I'll try to repost them in future.

[elSicomoro]

Who here has argued otherwise?

[jaguar]

So what you're saying is is there is no evidence of any real change(lets face it, if there had been anything major we would have heard about it) and in fact the situation in multiple places appears to be rapidly deteriorating (Saudi, Lebanon) but you have like this....vibe that things will get better, which totally justifies everything done and all the lies told for this quagmire.

I think the fact that the american-elected governing council, which has no legitimacy with the people picked a CIA stooge who has no legitimacy with the people to be president says all you need to know about how well things are going and how well they are going to go.

[Undertoad]

Don't talk to me about "vibe" in a thread where we assert that the nation's foreign policy is set on the basis of a "guilt" that some columnist has located. You sure got a stiffy for THAT vibe huh?

I notice that this stooge governing council has produced no mass graves. There's a massive change for you. and yet it doesn't make the news. Maybe it's the dogs that aren't barking that show us where the change really is.

[jaguar]

I never commented on the original article, I don't really care about it either way to be honest, poor bastard has to fill the inches some way.

Dude, the guy was a baath party member for a good decade, so technically, he's probably at least complicit in a fair few. Damn that liberal media eh, how dare they talk about the ongoing fighting, coalition partners pulling out, or anything bad, geez, anything to diss bush eh? If they were real patriotic americans they would just air how iraq is now the land of milk and honey and little children wave american flags on every corner.

Wake up, there is no change, saudi is repressing their people further, lebanon is on the brink of civil war again, isreal is invading the occupied lands and the rest of the arab world is wallowing in it's usual political stagnation and there is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. The governing council are puppets and the people know it, the next government will be puppets and the people know it and the chances of the CIA letting someone the people want come into power (and stay there without having an unfortunate accident) are statistically nil.


Secondly, X is evil is a fucking stupid reason to invade a country, particularly from a country that has put more bloody and brutal dictators in place (including saddam) than anyone else. Please don't try and claim the us has, in any shape or form, the moral high ground.

Originally posted by Undertoad
Maybe it's the dogs that aren't barking that show us where the change really is.

A silent dog signifies business as usual, he only barks when something unusual is going on. I agree with Jag. Its business as usual in the Arab world. Why shouldn't it be? What have we actually done to prove to the Arab people that democracy is a better way of life? We've invaded their homes, tortured their men, killed innocent women and children with our bombs, and the conditions in Iraq under the US military are worse than they were under Saddam, i.e. no electricity, little things like that. Our Western viewpoint is completely foreign to the average Middle Easterner. The people there lack the education to effectively participate in the democratic process. They don't even WANT the democratic process because it is being forced down their throats by people with guns from an alien culture and religion. All they want is for us to go away. They'll say anything if they feel that will help make us vanish from the scene.

[jaguar]

Now I think about it, by UT's logic, the daily headline should be '130000 US troops DIDN'T DIE TODAY!!! Praise bush!'

[Undertoad]

I never commented on the original article,

You have the first post after the original article.

...

Well, let us wait a few years and see whom history proves right.

To review, you believe there will be no change, and I believe it is too early to tell.

[jaguar]

Yea, I posted a light joke, this demonstrates I believe the article is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Nice backflip, first you're saying that the arab world is changing and you have things to back it up, now you're saying it's too early. I agree, it is too early but call me cynical but I don't think anything will change and I'm yet to see any evidence to proove me wrong.

[Undertoad]

The last sentence of my first post to this thread:

It's too early to tell whether they were right or wrong.

In my second post to the thread I said:

and although things seem to suck right now, it's STILL too early to figure out whether they were right.

So when you say

Nice backflip, first you're saying that the arab world is changing and you have things to back it up, now you're saying it's too early.

The only conclusion I can draw is that you aren't reading my posts.

[jaguar]

Then why point out some quote from the arab league and claims of all these articles in your history to back you up.

If your point always was simply it's too early to tell, why post anything it all, it wasn't even related at that point.

[Undertoad]

To remind people that this sort of reformation is the real reason and remains the real reason, not "guilt".

[jaguar]

by pointing out that, despite the evidence so far, good things might happen?

[Undertoad]

Yup.

It wouldn't happen immediately. First they would give lip-service to reforms and try to dismiss them.

[jaguar]

You do realize the arab league has been saying that stuff for nigh on decades right?