Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[yesman065]

Thats a good idea wolf - can we get that through congress?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Blue, the last card you should ever try to play with me is that one.

Resistance to tyranny -- a tyranny amply proven in North Vietnam's behavior in the South -- always has a point and is by nature noble and right.

The defeatism he pushed -- that liberty and democracy aren't worth the effort needed to emasculate the Communists for trying to chain humanity -- is exactly what people like me never accept. America has quite a supply of people like me, it seems. We like democracy in ways you apparently can't fathom, and we don't accept totalitarianism as a way for any society to be.

Your remark, dear sir, is extraordinarily anti-democracy, and it is cowardly. Be ashamed, and then be better than you were tonight.

The same goes double for you, tw. You aren't a patriot, but an antipatriot, and you've been that way since, oh, the 1960s. You have not written one single word demonstrating you want America to win. Contrast that with a search of my postings, you indescribably awful example.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

the effort needed to emasculate the Communists

And it was working so well right then and there, and ended up being so very successful. McGovern wanted to save your American life, and you blow him off by accusing him of defeatism. So ungrateful, you are.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I'm never grateful to people who fifth-column for humanity's enemy, and even less so to people who try and make America lose without even the crappy excuse of being foreigners.

Success, from a long-range point of view, was delayed: Vietnam eventually concluded Communism doesn't work as an economic system, and now seems to be turning capitalist in the streets while maintaining Communism as a sort of state religion. For the time being.

Which goes to demonstrate we were on the right side in that war, and that, blue, is something I've always understood -- since about fuckin' fourth grade. You, OTOH, have some catching up to do. I see you're not yet prepared to take the advice I gave you.

And where is McGovern now? -- retired and good riddance.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I'm never grateful to people who fifth-column for humanity's enemy, and even less so to people who try and make America lose without even the crappy excuse of being foreigners.

Success, from a long-range point of view, was delayed: Vietnam eventually concluded Communism doesn't work as an economic system, and now seems to be turning capitalist in the streets while maintaining Communism as a sort of state religion. For the time being.

Which goes to demonstrate we were on the right side in that war, and that, blue, is something I've always understood -- since about fuckin' fourth grade. You, OTOH, have some catching up to do. I see you're not yet prepared to take the advice I gave you.

And where is McGovern now? -- retired and good riddance.

Yet, you're a Nixon fan. Whatever happened to him? Give us some spin on how disgracing the office of President makes America win. And, while you're at it, how one 'catches up' to a fourth-grade opinion of the Vietnam war.

[tw]

Some samples of what we were saying about Iraq in The Cellar in late 2003 and early 2004. Saddam was on the run. Abu Ghraid had not yet happened. Tobias posted from Iraq. Fallujah was not yet fought. deBaathification and disbanded Armies in May had started a summer of violent attacks.

How corrupt the media?
So, UT, what do you think of the Iraq big picture now? where xoxoxoBruce says

The hell you will. You started this thread. Git back here.

Major Concession
Bush goes to Baghdad
Pissed Iraqi foreign minister kicks UN squarely in the nads

Can't you anti-war people keep your bullshit pretenses straight? ...
The reason we're confused is the story from the White House keeps changing.

Iraqi poll results
America's Antagonistic Allies

It was where we made a major mistake when our civilian leaders failed to plan for Iraqi surrender in 1991 - leaving Schwarzkopf to jury-rig a solution. As a result of mistakes made in Washington, we stayed and became a target of regional extremists.

What David Kay said and what they report

What he also said, which they don't report (source UK newspaper): Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief.

Nation Building 101

As the Joint Chiefs said was necessary before the Iraq invasion even began - 200,000 troops for at least two years - minimum. ... I am struck once again by the incomparable hold VIETNAM has over some people.

[Hippikos]

Resistance to tyranny -- a tyranny amply proven in North Vietnam's behavior in the South -- always has a point and is by nature noble and right.

Claiming that the US foreign policy is based on noble and right principles is ignorant, to say the least.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Claiming that the US foreign policy is based on noble and right principles is ignorant, to say the least.

Why can't America be noble and principled? I'm not saying our policy is, just asking why you think it can't be.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Why can't America be noble and principled? I'm not saying our policy is, just asking why you think it can't be.

It can be, but it isn't. It would be against the benefit of the US itself, most of the times. I'm not necessarily saying it's not the right thing (for the US) to do (Realpolitik and such), but claiming it happens out of noble principles is utter bollox.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Blue, I never have patience with the pseudosophisticates either. You are not able to fight totalitarianism; I am, and I have, and it's a way you'll never be, which keeps you the lesser. You can't even catch up with "a fourth-grade opinion." How lame is that?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You are not able to fight totalitarianism; I am, and I have, and it's a way you'll never be, which keeps you the lesser.

So Urbane Guerrilla just announced either his suicide or his impending mental self destruction. UG - you are the classic example of totalitarianism. You even preach (lie) exact same spin as those who did it in 1970 support the liar Nixon. Nixon also promoted and Cheney currently promotes same totalitarianism that Urbane Guerrilla promotes.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by tw

Nixon also promoted and Cheney currently promotes same totalitarianism that Urbane Guerrilla promotes.

This is true -- in that I promote no totalitarianism at all. My mind, tw, remains clearer than yours at all times, at least those times when I am awake. Keep this in mind -- to the degree possible in yours.

It is remarked, from the National Review quarter, that Nixon was no conservative -- and I think with justice, taking the quickly-failed wage-price regulation as just one example. The Bush Administration's fundamental political instinct is more in line with conservative Republican thinking: minimize tax burden (though in the typical Republican/Beltway/Democrat fallacy, don't minimize the burden by cutting government services and staffers of agencies, hence being vulnerable on the score of deficit spending), don't monkey with the Bill of Rights even where it might be convenient (a besetting sin of the Clinton Administration, which never gave a tinker's damn about the BoR and perennially worked to subvert it, though they were more successful at subverting the Department of Justice), and if a war comes, and come it did for certain on 9/11, try and win it rather than do the Dem Party thing -- make a half measure and call it "unwinnable."

This is what they try for, and they keep trying, even if they don't achieve it in the press of circumstance and the roar of war. The previous occupant of the Oval Office never even tried, and was an inept cypher at foreign policy. What can you say of a President who never recognized he had a war to fight? Glad I never voted for this -- this indescribable Ol' Possum Head.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

... don't monkey with the Bill of Rights even where it might be convenient ...

Oh my fucking god. You have got to be kidding me. Bush has unabashedly trampled every amendment but the second.

Oh wait, thats what you meant by the Bill of Rights. Nevermind then.

[Ibby]

Amen. Something truly sensible from tw for a change (sorry mate).

[tw]

From the New York Times of 10 Jan 2007:

U.S. and Iraqis Hit Insurgents in All-Day Fight
The fighting raged less than 1,000 yards from the heavily fortified Green Zone, which houses both the American command and the Iraqi government. It was the latest episode for the troubled neighborhood around Haifa Street, where major campaigns have repeatedly been initiated to rid the area of insurgents, only to have them re-infiltrate.

Iraqi officials said that at least 50 militants were killed Tuesday, but the Americans said they could not provide a count.

Complete with body counts, this reeks of Vietnam. US Military with a second surge this fall in Baghdad (troops removed from Anbar province execute this surge) still fight battles all day long - even with Apache helicopters and fighter bombers? This is a crowded city. Right outside the Green Zone. This is a victory?

Green zone - where Americans did not leave in 2004 due to security risks even in Baghdad – when the entire administration said we were winning hearts and minds? US troops and civilians could even walk the streets of Saigon during a losing war. A raging all day battle only right outside the green zone? This sounds more like the Tet Offensive.

Frank Miller was a 22 year veteran of the Pentagon; an analyst who viewed documents that most others only saw after being censored. Condi Rice, so frustrated for information in March 2004, sent Miller to Baghdad. Remember, this is when Iraq was secure – even according to many in The Cellar; reconstruction was rumored to be ongoing; the press was accused of being negative.

Miller was struck by how the Coalition Provisional Authority had become a hermit city, ensconced in the Green Zone. He explained to one CPA official how he planned to fly around the country to visit with the US military division commanders ... "Wow," the CPA official said. "I wish we could to that. I wish we could see the country." ...

It was striking, Miller thought, that the Iraqis he saw seemed generally friendly, or at least not antagonistic. Little kids came running out, smiling, saying hello, and giving the thumbs-up sign as they moved through.

And that is what many even in the Cellar posted.

It wasn't the middle finger, he noted, not realizing that in Iraq the thumbs-up sign traditionally was the equivalent of the American middle-finger salute.

Reality in Iraq even in 2004 was quite different from what our Rush Limbaugh and Fox News liars promoted.

It was that bad then. It’s many times worse now - an all day battle fought even right outside the Green Zone. What does that say (and obviously say to all Iraqis)? The insurgents are winning just like the Vietcong 30+ years ago. The president is lying to save his legacy as Nixon did (knowning full well that Vietnam could not be won). George Jr will send more (and too few) troops as if securing Baghdad will somehow win “Mission Accomplished”. He does this why? Read those posts on and after Sept 2003.