Implementing Democracy 1.01 in Iran

[DanaC]

I was trying to point out to UG that this utopia he seeks to promote for the world, where "everybody succeeds and lives well" isn't realistic and doesn't exist even in his own country. The fact is, under any system, some people succeed and some people do not. Each country/culture has its own set of definitions for what constitutes success and the price of not succeeding differs from country to country.

UG claims that if we all do things the American way every human will 'succeed and live well'. That is patently not the case. It is entirely contrary to the way capitalism works. It is most certainly not a rationale for imposing American economic and democratic structures onto the rest of the world.

In the UK, not everybody succeeds and lives well. The worst of their poverty is usually alleviated by the welfare state, but the gulf between the haves and the have-nots is still a gulf. In America, not everybody succeeds and lives well. In France not everybody succeeds and lives well.....not in Russia, not in Sweden not anywhere.

[DanaC]

Not everyone puts in the effort or is willing to put off gratification in order to succeed down the road.

Not everyone is in a position to take the first steps down that road. Some people have other commitments which take them out o fthe running. It's not always a case of a refusal to delay gratification. Sometimes it's a case of being mired in a situation whereby only selfishness would lead someone to follow that path, rather than get the job and deal with the financial responsibilities that they have in the now. This is not peculiar to the States, it's the case here as well.

I think there's also a lot to be said for facillitating second chances in life. Some people make stupid choices when they are young and then find themselves in situations they either cannot handle or which make them unhappy.

There are also plenty of people who work hard, contribute greatly but never get above the minimum wage. Those people, I feel should be given a better deal in life. They're the ones that keep the machinery working.

[Hippikos]

Everybody still believes in the fairy story of the paperpboy becoming a millionaire. In reality winning the lotterie has more chances.

Since the 1970s, wages, after adjusting for inflation, have been in decline for 80 percent of U.S. men on the lower end of the income scale. For 60% of the families its been a losing battle, the average household is in deeper debt then ever before.

Still the American Dream lives on, but for many it becomes a nightmare...

[9th Engineer]

I'm not saying every American has a good chance of becoming a millionare, but it's perfectly possible to live comfortably. We are moving away from an industry focused on unskilled labor and trying to become one of businesses, skilled workers, and academics.
I take a rather strong view on this but it is coupled with an even stronger view of our parallel resposibility to provide an education that can take every student as far as they are willing to go. I cannot emphasize this enough, the single most important part of everyone's life before the age of 20-25 is becoming educated, and it is my generations fight to make it possible for every student to have the opportunity. Unfortunately we are still far from this, I absolutely admit it, and it's mostly because of the ignorence in our society about the times we live in and the irresposibility of many members of the older generation. Parents must never burden their children with responsibilities that stop them from persuing their education. I personally see this as an afront as serious as physical and emotional abuse, and it is certainly shameful. It may not be malicious, but if it exists the student should have the opportunity to escape it. The Japanese treat highschool very similarly to how we treat university, and students will sometimes travel and live on their own in order to attend the best highschool they can. We should make an effort to start some sort of subsidized housing programs around highschools for students comming from bad homes, and perhaps even a type of dormatory would be a good idea.

I know the typical response is "what do you think will happen if you put highschool students in a dormatory or give them their own appartment? You must be absolutely crazy to think that anything like that won't be completely destroyed on an annual basis". But that is assuming highschool students keep the same attitudes that they do now. They don't have a sense of responsibility because they arn't given any, I got to see the flip side of this while I was staying at Tsinghua University in Beijing. Over there, any student who fails out or is expelled for damage or misbehavior(it's alot easier than over here for this to happen) will probably be stuck selling noodles from a street cart for the rest of their life. Guess what? Dorms that are 15 years old are in perfect condition, there are no problems on campus and everyone treats their academics as a matter of life and death. Even if you think it sounds brutal I can tell you it really isn't. The students are happy and go about their business just like any American student does. There are coffee houses, lounges, and concerts held on campus for entertainment and it's all done at low expense because the students actually act like reasonable people. This is our generations fight now, and we need to increase advocacy programs that address this issue.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Everybody still believes in the fairy story of the paperpboy becoming a millionaire. In reality winning the lotterie has more chances.

Since the 1970s, wages, after adjusting for inflation, have been in decline for 80 percent of U.S. men on the lower end of the income scale. For 60% of the families its been a losing battle, the average household is in deeper debt then ever before.

Still the American Dream lives on, but for many it becomes a nightmare...

Basically, I agree with your post. But keep in mind some of the reasons the average household is deeper in debt.

Housing costs have soared, so people have larger mortgages. That doesn't mean most won't make the payments, just that their debt load is higher. Of course people like Lookout recommend not paying off the mortgage but put the money in investments instead.

Another reason can be education loans that don't get paid off until 15 or 20 years after graduation....just in time for their kids to go to school.

A big one is irresponsible use of credit cards. Not caring what the balance or interest is....just the minimum payment. The credit industry has sold these people on easy credit and they bought it, hook, line, and sinker. Don't deny yourself that trinket, just put it on the card.

A guy I work with has a 24 year old daughter living at home. During a recent clothing drive, she threw out a whole trash bag full of clothing and several pairs of shoes that still had price tags on them. Put it on the card.

Most people wouldn't believe what they could do without... wouldn't even consider doing without.
Yes, there are a lot of people going down the tubes because of the "restructuring" of the economy, but the numbers don't tell the whole story.

[DanaC]

That's very true. But there are also a lot of people who aren't even close to that rung. I watched an interesting documentary recently. Thirty Days...on minimum wage. Have you seen it? It's bhy the same guy that made the one about McDonalds food. Well worth watching.

Just as in my country there is an 'underclass' in America. These people may be working or they may not, but they have a whole different set of problems to the ones you describe.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sure, we have a fair amount of working homeless..... or barely keeping a roof and a couple meals a day, with 2 or 3 people in the household working.

A million people will give you a million different stories..... a million different reasons.....many of them heart wrenching.
At one time we tried throwing money at them but that just made things worse, trapping generations in the welfare ghettos. We need a better, way but when there are so many different circumstances, a government agency always seems hamstrung by red tape and unfair rules.
Historically, giving the first level bureaucrats flexibility leads to abuse of the system.

[Aliantha]

Not everyone wants to 'live the american way' UG. That's something you're going to have to accept.

I live in a country which has close ties the the US and similar lifestyles, and yet I would never want to 'live the american way' and I'll fight tooth and nail to retain my own culture. I think you'll find most other cultures in the world would be of a very similar school of thought.

[Aliantha]

Just another thought.

You must consider the distribution of wealth. There's only so much of it to go around, so if one person gets richer, another is going to get poorer. If you want the rest of the world to live the way America does, where do you think they're going to get the money to do so?

Doesn't the simple fact that 90% of the worlds wealth is owned by 10% of the population tell you anything?

[9th Engineer]

You must consider the distribution of wealth. There's only so much of it to go around, so if one person gets richer, another is going to get poorer. If you want the rest of the world to live the way America does, where do you think they're going to get the money to do so?

Woah woah woah, hold on there. That is a serious misconception. There is no great 'pie' out there that everyone gets a slice of and once its gone, that's it. I won't use the term 'creating wealth' because it's slightly misleading, wealth is not the same as money. A better term is buying power, new technologies create the illusion of everyone having more money by allowing what used to cost them $1 to be produced and sold for only $0.75. No new money minted, but people are now 25% richer. Very often, when a person gets very rich it's because they've done something like this, and personally pocketed 15 cents of the reduced cost. Do it on a large scale, and POOF!! 100 million dollars seems to spring from nowhere. But as you can see, no one is any poorer.

This isn't everything, I'm just trying to prove the point that people getting richer is not a sign that other people must be getting poorer.

[9th Engineer]

Doesn't the simple fact that 90% of the worlds wealth is owned by 10% of the population tell you anything?

Yeah, it tells me that 90% of the world needs to get its ass in gear and start producing a useful product that has some value.

[9th Engineer]

I still stand by what I say here as not just the only reasonable way to eliminate poverty, but also one that has been proven to work. It's just that the whiners out there will tell you people can't do it or make excuses.

I'm not saying every American has a good chance of becoming a millionare, but it's perfectly possible to live comfortably. We are moving away from an industry focused on unskilled labor and trying to become one of businesses, skilled workers, and academics.
I take a rather strong view on this but it is coupled with an even stronger view of our parallel resposibility to provide an education that can take every student as far as they are willing to go. I cannot emphasize this enough, the single most important part of everyone's life before the age of 20-25 is becoming educated, and it is my generations fight to make it possible for every student to have the opportunity. Unfortunately we are still far from this, I absolutely admit it, and it's mostly because of the ignorence in our society about the times we live in and the irresposibility of many members of the older generation. Parents must never burden their children with responsibilities that stop them from persuing their education. I personally see this as an afront as serious as physical and emotional abuse, and it is certainly shameful. It may not be malicious, but if it exists the student should have the opportunity to escape it. The Japanese treat highschool very similarly to how we treat university, and students will sometimes travel and live on their own in order to attend the best highschool they can. We should make an effort to start some sort of subsidized housing programs around highschools for students comming from bad homes, and perhaps even a type of dormatory would be a good idea.

refer to the original for more detail.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Woah woah woah, hold on there. That is a serious misconception. There is no great 'pie' out there that everyone gets a slice of and once its gone, that's it. I won't use the term 'creating wealth' because it's slightly misleading, wealth is not the same as money. A better term is buying power, new technologies create the illusion of everyone having more money by allowing what used to cost them $1 to be produced and sold for only $0.75. No new money minted, but people are now 25% richer. Very often, when a person gets very rich it's because they've done something like this, and personally pocketed 15 cents of the reduced cost. Do it on a large scale, and POOF!! 100 million dollars seems to spring from nowhere. But as you can see, no one is any poorer.

This isn't everything, I'm just trying to prove the point that people getting richer is not a sign that other people must be getting poorer.

Agreed. I accept that I over simplified my point, however, the fact still remains that this planet does not have the resources to keep every soul on it at the same level of comfort which we in western nations enjoy.

By trying to 'democratise/westernise' the whole world a whole new set of long term issues are being created as anyone with any environmental intelligence will tell you.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Oh, we arn't classless by any stretch of the imagination. The closest thing I would say to that is that we have very good mobility between classes.

I would say we used to have very good mobility between classes. Now the mobility appears to be downward.

[9th Engineer]

I have a personal theory that the size of the middle class in a healthy economy probably follows a sinusoidal pattern. People are not stupid, but most are lazy (used in the sense of not doing more work than they have to). We saw a boom in our middle class in the generation(s) following the great depression/WW2 because of this, children growing up knew that they didn't have much to fall back on if they failed to become self reliant, hence greater productivity and a larger population of successful people. Now we see a generation that has grown up with the belief that everything will be ok no matter what, they think that even if they don't do well in school and have to work minimum wage someone will be there to take them in and back them up. Hence, more students take more risk because of this illusionary safty net (moral for parents, make it very clear that you are taking the house key back after graduation). We will have a generation that lives in poorer conditions and their children will be more ambitious in order to escape from it.

It doesn't matter if we know history or not, we still repeat it. Humans are very simple animals.