Do You Hear That Sucking Sound?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

And the core of the problem still is not in the United States: the core of the problem is that Mexico lacks a middle class visible to the naked eye. No way up -- unless you go north.

Should they remove every factor in their sociopolitical environment that militates against a vibrant middle class, Mexico will become a great and wealthy place to live, work, and raise families. However, we'd have to go back and undo about everything from circa 1521 AD to get that: unlike North America, colonized almost entirely by a horde of smallholders, each with a stake in growing his little patch, Mexico's colonization was by a sparse sprinkle of aristocrats, who knew only one economic model: large landholding, which model they operated under. There's hardly a better way to ensure that you have a small percentage of major landholders -- and a propertyless class of laborers without prospects of being anything but laborers.

That's an awfully big job -- but it would make "our" illegal-immigrant problem go away permanently.

[Tonchi]

OK, UG, I agree with your solution. Given the known number of controlling family units in Mexico, by my calculations we probably have to execute no more than 3-5,000 people to clean out this "mindset" of theirs which is so inconvenient. However, I'd like to point out that this solution is always the first agenda of any Latin American populist revolution, including the one which tore Mexico apart circa 1910. First they kill all the large landowners and industrialists and "divide the land among The People." Then, for good measure, kill all the priests and nuns because the Catholic Church traditionally supported the ruling class. But then a funny thing takes place: suddenly even the lowest peasant who gets any power begins ruling in the exact template of the oppressors which were removed. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. How do you plan to solve THAT problem? Wipe the whole country clean and start over? "Education camps" a la Mao? Mass brainwashings and indoctrination in "proper values" as in 1984? Oh dear, what's the World's Only Superpower to do so that these inferiors will see that we are right?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Rumsfeld could solve the problem.

[lhatcher]

In my opinion, the US should make it easier for immigrants to enter the US legally, then perhaps more people would. I know that's simplistic, but here is part of an email that floated across my desk recently:Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S. might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there. It's only fair, after all,
because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.

I'm hard-working and honest . um, except for ... well, you know.
And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being
anti-housebreaker.
Oh I don't know what the solution is, but if I ran the world (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. whew!) if you want to live here, come in the right way, and those who do should be welcome.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I agree. If they come legally and obey our laws, they should be welcome.

[bluecuracao]

Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S. might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.

Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."

According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).

If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there. It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.

I'm hard-working and honest . um, except for ... well, you know. And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being anti-housebreaker.

Ugh, whoever wrote this obnoxious email doesn't understand the "thinking" correctly. But you are absolutely right, lhatcher; if it were easier for immigrants to enter/be here legally, more would. Most people don't want to come or be here illegally, it's often a matter of survival and they don't have much choice. I think the author of the email takes for granted the freedoms that we enjoy in the U.S., and can't begin to fathom any other way of life.

The author doesn't understand that a) millions of immigrants undocumented by U.S. Immigration are in fact documented by the IRS, and do contribute as much as anyone else, and b) if the workers who do not presently pay taxes are allowed to stay and become legal, they can get a SSN for that very purpose. I know I've said this stuff on other threads, so I apologize for sounding like a broken record.

[Hippikos]

this is how we do it in Europe:

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Ugh, whoever wrote this obnoxious email doesn't understand the "thinking" correctly. But you are absolutely right, lhatcher; if it were easier for immigrants to enter/be here legally, more would. Most people don't want to come or be here illegally, it's often a matter of survival and they don't have much choice. I think the author of the email takes for granted the freedoms that we enjoy in the U.S., and can't begin to fathom any other way of life.

The author doesn't understand that a) millions of immigrants undocumented by U.S. Immigration are in fact documented by the IRS, and do contribute as much as anyone else, and b) if the workers who do not presently pay taxes are allowed to stay and become legal, they can get a SSN for that very purpose. I know I've said this stuff on other threads, so I apologize for sounding like a broken record.

Yes more would come legally if it were easier. But, we already accept more legal aliens than anybody else....I suspect probably everyone else combined.

When are we full? Where does it stop? Do you think they will ever fix their own country as long as they can come here? Do you realize what would happen if we just left the door open to all the people in the world that want to be here? How long would be until we didn't want to be here anymore?

Yes, some are paying taxes. But what about drivers licenses, car insurance, medical insurance so the ERs get paid, property taxes for the schools and all the other fees and levies we pay? Since they only want to take the money and run, I guess they wouldn't contribute any more than labor to the good of the country.

Do you think if it was easier to come here legally, the Mexicans would bring the whole clan and leave Mexico behind for good? Not send their money back to Mexico? I doubt it, but I don't have a crystal ball.

[bluecuracao]

Well, that's what we get for being America--we're not like everyone else. Never have been, never will be. We've always been the refuge, the fixers, the supplier of funds, the negotiators. We can't stop--if we do, we become the antithesis of what has created and sustained us.

The fear of the "open door" is not new by any means in U.S. history (I feel weird explaining this. Bruce, you're smart, you should know this). For centuries, people already here have always become very alarmed by cultural and population changes, but we've survived every wave to our general benefit.

Yes, if it were easier to legally come to the U.S. (and be here, for those recently arrived AND those who've spent almost their entire lives here), Mexican and other immigrants would bring their families to stay. As has been pointed out by others, there is little, if anything, for them to succeed or even just live in the countries they came from. Why? Because those countries suck, and we rule.

[xoxoxoBruce]

When I say "open door", I don't mean "open turnstile" where everyone coming in is documented. I mean open the door and anybody that wants to, can wander in without restriction or documentation. I will always be against that.

There are a million reasons to control our borders. Control doesn't mean closed, it means we know who is coming and going, we know who's here and in some cases, such as students, what they are doing here. This is one of the things we have a federal government for....one of the few legitimate duties of the feds ......who seem to be too busy messing with things they shouldn't, to do what they should.

I have no fear of foreigners that come here legally, have a desire to be Americans.....loyal Americans. They've been coming for two hundred years and making the country stronger and better, often more loyal and contributing more, than native borns.
I do fear and resent, however, invaders that come to pillage without regard for our laws....without regard for U.S./us.

The people in Los Angeles know real fear, up close and personal fear, from a criminal element that's come north to prey on illegals and branched out.... using the illegals as their power base/revenue source.
We're seeing much more of this in PA, also.... a hispanic criminal element that regularly preys on illegals for the money to expand their horizons. The victims can't get help from the law because they themselves are criminals of a different stripe.
Yes, I feel sorry for them, it sucks to live that way.....But I maintain their problems don't supersede the problem they are creating for/contributing to, the rest of us.

The Mexicans taking down the American flag at the CA Post Office and running up the Mexican flag....twice, with impunity....turns my stomach. Not because that piece of cloth is so important, but because it shows an attitude, shows they feel they are above our laws, shows they feel they can do whatever the hell they want and we can't stop them.
What do you think would happen to me if I ran the Scottish flag up at the Philadelphia Post Office. I guarantee I would at least be arrested. Why do they deserve more tolerance than I do? We both know what would happen to me in Mexico or most other countries.
We're different? We're better? We're more tolerant? Yes, but it's only in recent years that kind of crap would be tolerated. I contend it's not a good direction for the country when Political Correctness/embracing diversity, erodes the one thing Americans have in common.

Anecdotes abound, north vs south, east vs west, sailors vs Marines, city slickers vs country bumpkins, even men vs women..... but the one thing that kept us from really serious conflict was our differences were not as important as what we had in common. We would come together like family to defend our commonality....our Flag & Country.
If we lose that, we all become pink monkeys.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yes, some are paying taxes. But what about drivers licenses, car insurance, medical insurance so the ERs get paid, property taxes for the schools and all the other fees and levies we pay?

Renters pay property tax, and everybody pays sales/gas/etc. taxes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's true. Except when they are sharing quarters provided by the employer.

Are you worried about America not being able to pay for all the money it borrows from China , xoxoxoBruce ? If so , you must be the only American to do so . May I suggest that you choose someone other than Juanita to blame , for the erratic economy of the whole world is due to America's debt to China . America surfs on its debts , and treads the rest of the world underfoot .

[BobT]

From just 11 of the 10 to 16 million Mexicans here, that's $3,000 a week or $150,000 a year, that's not being spent in this country...... that's not being invested in this country.
Right up there with walmart for sucking the country dry.[/quote]

what the mexicans workers in america are sending back is, quite frankly, not a significant amount when you compare it to the outsourcing of enitire factories full of workers to thrid world countries. the jobs outflow is staggering, and is encouraged by current government policy that does not tax the wages paid by american companies overseas. if american companies were forced to pay employment taxes on the wages that they pay to foreign workers and put those taxes into the Social Security fund for the retirement benefits of the american workforce we could make a difference on whether there is money there for your, my and other working americans when we are ready to retire.

this would also change the benefit analysis that american companies have to make when they justify moving a plant overseas. i don't claim that they would not make the same decision, but it would be important to those relocations that are maginal.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Buddug

Are you worried about America not being able to pay for all the money it borrows from China , xoxoxoBruce ? If so , you must be the only American to do so . May I suggest that you choose someone other than Juanita to blame , for the erratic economy of the whole world is due to America's debt to China . America surfs on its debts , and treads the rest of the world underfoot .

Yes, very much so.
No, I'm not.
Juanita is not to blame, the US Government policy and actions (which don't always agree) are to blame for creating and maintaining this situation.
Sucks, to be you.