Chief Illiniwek

[xoxoxoBruce]

Do you know one person that was offended by the Fighting Whiteys? I don't... not one. I suppose because 6 million Jews died in Germany, I can't laugh at fiddler on the roof, too.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

A lot of teams chose Indians out of respect for their abilities as warriors. Does that mean their mascot should go around fighting everyone? No, only opponents.
Every one of them looks better than "drunken Ira Hayes". What do you want, noble red man sitting on his horse gazing over the plains below? Talk about perpetuating a stereotype, most of them never saw the plains.
I'm not talking about how they were treated, but how they are portrayed.

Right. Because they stereotype Indians as "warriors," "braves" or similar, a la old John Wayne movies. The most positive depiction of Native Americans by sports team mascots is NO depiction. The University of Illinios, ignorantly, couldn't even get it right trying to depict a specific tribe with their mascot. Of all places, institutes of higher learning should hold themselves to higher standards.

I'm not sure what you mean by "most of them never saw the plains"--several tribes still live in the plains areas.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The Indians got there ass kicked when they tried to stop the settling of North America. Boo fucking hoo, get over it, unless you want a rematch. Stop being a professional victim. You've seen pictures of the reservations, they suck.
One of the guys I work with came from a reservation on the Mexican border, high school diploma because he wanted it, joined the Navy to get away, and never looked back. Nice house and family in the suburbs because he refused to be a victim. He hasn't forgotten his heritage, his tribal history, but he knows that was then and this is now.
They can't wander around hunting Buffalo and setting fire to the plains anymore. They can't live on roots, berries and venison in the Ozarks anymore. It's not going to happen, ever.... so get off your ass and get to work if you want more than you've got.

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim. Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them. Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations." It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

[freshnesschronic]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim. Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them. Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations." It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

Agreed. It sounded like Bruce was saying that they should just assimulate just because everyone else does. It is not a bad thing at all if some Native Americans want to whole heartedly maintain their culture that was practiced for generations before the settlers. By just saying "yeah, whatever they got their assked kicked" then it shows total intolerance and ignorance to their culture.

Everyone has a right to maintain their way of life as it seems fit. We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

The Yanomami is a first-contact Native American tribe in the Amazon that refuses to live like normal Brazilians. We shouldn't make them assimulate just because we tell them to.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

I think it's safe to say, though, that most Native Americans in the U.S. who maintain traditional cultures also incorporate the "U.S. lifestyle." Those who don't would have to make a concerted effort not to.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

Agreed. It sounded like Bruce was saying that they should just assimilate just because everyone else does. It is not a bad thing at all if some Native Americans want to whole heartedly maintain their culture that was practiced for generations before the settlers. By just saying "yeah, whatever they got their assked kicked" then it shows total intolerance and ignorance to their culture.

Can you point to where that "quotation" came from? It wasn't me. Define culture, what do you think is incorporated in "their culture".

Everyone has a right to maintain their way of life as it seems fit. We shouldn't judge them if they want to be traditional and unincorporated into US lifestyle.

Fine, they can live any way they want. But if they piss and moan that the feds should support them because they can't hunt and gather anymore, that doesn't cut it. They don't have to live in a split level rancher and have two SUVs in the driveway. They can live in a tipi, wigwam, wickiup, hogan, double wide or palace, that's their business. They don't have to give up their way of worshiping or their crafts and traditions. But they DO have to find a way to support and feed their families. I would assume most of them do that. Usually that means working for a living outside, but what ever works for them. I'd hardly call the assimilating.

The Yanomami is a first-contact Native American tribe in the Amazon that refuses to live like normal Brazilians. We shouldn't make them assimulate just because we tell them to.

Who said they did? As long as they have the means to continue their lifestyle, why can't they? The rub comes when they start killing off their neighbors to maintain that lifestyle. If that happens, you can be sure they will get their ass kicked in short order, because the government can't tolerate that. It's eventually going to come down to who owns the land and I'm pretty sure the government thinks they do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Right. Because they stereotype Indians as "warriors," "braves" or similar, a la old John Wayne movies.

No, not John Wayne Movies, that's what they respected and emulated the most. Go to the Smithsonian and read the Lakota winter counts. Highlight of the year?...caught an unarmed boy from another clan out picking berries alone, and killed him.

The most positive depiction of Native Americans by sports team mascots is NO depiction.

Why can't you understand they are not depicting Indians, they are depicting a caricature. Nobody thinks the mascots are depicting any real indians.

The University of Illinios, ignorantly, couldn't even get it right trying to depict a specific tribe with their mascot. Of all places, institutes of higher learning should hold themselves to higher standards.

They should be historically correct in dress and manner? Give me a break, it's a mascot not a historical pageant.

I'm not sure what you mean by "most of them never saw the plains"--several tribes still live in the plains areas.

oooow, several tribes huh? How many Indians do you think were living between the Atlantic and Pacific, at their peak? And how many of them ever saw the great plains?

Retaining your culture isn't being a victim.

"Culture is a catch all phrase. If you sustain yourself buy hunting and gathering and suddenly you're in a place with no game and you can't keep moving to gather, then you damn well better come up with a new plan, even if your ancestors did it for centuries.

Not all reservations "suck," not even most of them.

I guess that depends on your definition of suck.

Not all tribal-owned lands are even called "reservations."

Who said they were?

It's too bad that your friend decided to leave his tribe for good, but that's his choice, I guess. Maybe he'll have a change of heart one day and go back to be a part of the community, revive/continue traditions, bring his skills/trade in, etc.

Bullshit, it's desert, there's precious little water, and the only jobs are tracking wetbacks for the federal government. Everybody else lives on welfare. Who in hell would go back to that? Get a dose of reality, will ya.

Now, this perception of yours that "the Indians got their ass kicked" is exactly the kind of stereotype that is perpetuated by the John Wayne Indian mascots. Yes, there were tribes that were decimated or uprooted. But there are still a lot of us, and cultural traditions are still going strong in native communities from North to South America.

Yeah, there are "communities" of Sandhill Cranes, too. But thanks for straightening that out, silly me, I didn't know the indians won.

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Why can't you understand they are not depicting Indians, they are depicting a caricature. Nobody thinks the mascots are depicting any real indians.They should be historically correct in dress and manner? Give me a break, it's a mascot not a historical pageant.

The problem is idiots actually end up missing the whole caricature point. You don't want to know how many people think the Vikings actually had horns based on Minnesota Vikings emblem. The solution isn't to make the team change but to make sure people know it's a caricature.

[freshnesschronic]

Well put, blue. That's what I woulda said, if I was a better writer.

I agree, let's consider the culture of peoples that frankly, is beyond comprehension of our culture. Telling them to change because that's the way it goes isn't how it should be. Let's try not to hold onto the colonialistic attitudes of "Land? Land should be owned! This is the West! Shutup and move or die!" that got us into this mess in the first place.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by freshnesschronic

Well put, blue. That's what I woulda said, if I was a better writer.

I agree, let's consider the culture of peoples that frankly, is beyond comprehension of our culture. Telling them to change because that's the way it goes isn't how it should be. Let's try not to hold onto the colonialistic attitudes of "Land? Land should be owned! This is the West! Shutup and move or die!" that got us into this mess in the first place.

What mess are we in?
Or are you speaking for the Indians?

OK, since you don't believe in property ownership I think I'll sleep in your bedroom tomorrow night. OK?

[freshnesschronic]

Dude it just seems like you think everyone in America should think like you. Are you speaking for everyone who is an American?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hell no, I speak for myself just like you or anyone else. Even points that are linked, doesn't make it so, it just shows how the poster came by their view. On the other hand, bluecuracao wants everyone to think like her. No, that's not true, but I believe she would like everyone to have her view of Indians and Mexicans.
She and I have disagreed of minority issues before, and I have the greatest respect for her and her right to her opinions. I just don't agree with many of them.
Do you think I make it up as I go along? No, I got my opinions about Indians the old fashioned way, I earned them.

Actually the Indians is something I've done quite a bit of research on, but only when they were a player in the shaping of the country. After that, only information what happens to come my way, like everyone else rather than active looking. Some current tid bits I hear from an old girlfriend because she has a lot of contact with Indian dance troops across the country.

But, none of that has anything to do with sports mascots, because that was then and this is now. Anyone that sees Chief Illiniwek or Wahoo and assumes that's what Indians either were, and/or are, like, shouldn't be out of the home without an orderly. Seriously, if they can't see the difference between mascot behavior and real people behavior, they need to see Dr Wolf.

[Undertoad]

I can imagine no bigger honor, than if a group I was in was used in some cartoonish way as the team mascot for a major sports organization.

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I can imagine no bigger honor, than if a group I was in was used in some cartoonish way as the team mascot for a major sports organization.

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

Although given the fact the mascot supposedly honouring the Illiniwek was dressed as a Sioux, it would be a fat guy in a blouse and skirt and a woman in sweats.....

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Imagine our awesome pride if, someday, the Philadelphia Dwellars competed in the National Football League.

The logo would either be a fat guy typing at a keyboard in his sweats, or a woman in her office hitting alt-tab to avoid the boss.

I object! By depicting the office worker as a woman you insult my manhood.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The Smithsonian has had a considerable collection of Indian stuff, long before it became fashionable to break up their stuff into dedicated museums.
That's just a fund raising ploy, anyway.

True, they've had a lot of Indian Stuff for a long time, but isn't it a little bit possible the Native American Museum was built to show more of that stuff? Though, The Smithsonian does need funds to keep going; I don't think they're trying pull anything over on the public.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You're an expert on what people think and why? Why are you determined to educate the public about what Indians are doing now.
I suspect as long as you don't interfere with them doing their thing, most people have more than a passing interest in, or care if, you're doing your thing. That was the general idea when the Constitution was written. Granted, it's been severely strained, but it's still a good idea.
Case in point, most people don't even know what their Congress Critters are doing and that's something that effects them profoundly.

You got that right. I think of everyone that belongs here as Americans. I'd rather dwell on what we have in common, even though that's become unfashionable. Everyone is running around declaring they are different, they are special, which is usually followed by why they should get preferential treatment.

What I understand from this is that you consider cultural diversity as something merely in fashion, and you think that when someone shares information about other cultures, they're wasting their time. OK, fine. But that contradicts your apparent interest in The Smithsonian.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Foul. Culture is an English word. It can't have a different meaning for different communities. You have to establish what the word culture encompasses. Once thats established, the circumstances, the problems, and solutions can vary from place to place but not the definition of culture. You've just proven my statement that people used it as a catch all, by doing just that.

I didn't say the word "culture" has different definitions. I said the same thing you're saying now.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You have no idea what I know. You said We were both talking about a specific individual . I said Still speaking of a specific individual and his circumstances. I still say your statement was bullshit applied to that specific individual.
I don't care how many return to their roots, I wasn't discussing that. I was talking about how one individual escaped a hell hole and became a productive member of a community instead of living on welfare and bitching. Again, if you can't support yourself where you're at, move.

Alright. But this specific individual's circumstances seem to form the basis of your opinion that Native Americans overall have these circumstances. I presented to you another scenario. Sorry you're not interested in it.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's right they didn't. The smart ones adjusted, adapted and evolved with the developing circumstances. The ones that persisted in fighting went the way of the Sandhill Cranes. Human beings? More specific than that, Americans. I don't think any of the tribes are issuing passports yet, are they?
I really don't care what they are doing north or south of our borders.

There's more to it than that. Some tribes didn't fight, and didn't survive long enough to adapt. There are others who fought who are still around. The matter of smart vs. not smart, won vs. got their ass kicked can't be applied as a sweeping generalization to all Native Americans. And Native Americans are not only those who live within the U.S. borders. You may not care about any of this, but that's reality.

All I can do is share my point of view and the facts I know. If someone makes statements which look like they're based on error or lack of knowledge, I like to try to help out. Isn't that what we all do here, more or less?

As an aside, I don't know a thing about Sandhill Cranes and figured they were extinct or close to it based on your analogy, so I looked 'em up and found out that, "Sandhill Cranes are the most abundant of the world’s cranes."