California on the Brink

[sugarpop]

It is multisource problem, and anyone who thinks different isn't looking at the whole picture and the effects of the situation. And are you AWARE of how many BILLIONS of dollars illegal workers send back to Mexico alone (not to mention other countries) every year? The payhecks a few are collecting. That is a freaking ridiculous statement. How many millions of those jobs could someone who is here legally have right now, and not be on unemployment?

Anyone who supports business hiring illegal workers is supporting a form of slavery.

[jinx]

Yes, I'm aware of the money they send back home.... tons of legal workers do the same, it's their money to do with what they want.
Business owners pay taxes to a govt that then turns around and protects illegals in the name of PC... you're surprised businesses/farms try to save a buck by hiring cheaply?

Stop them at the borders, inquire about immigration status at hospitals, schools, welfare/foodstamp office etc., eject the ones already here - and the hiring problem will be solved.

[sugarpop]

There aren't enough people to stop them at the borders. The borders of this country are too huge. And the ones who are caught and sent back just turn around and come back anyway. I know someone personally whose sister is with an illegal. He has been sent back 3 or 4 times already, and he just comes back. And he has a job that pays him $35/hour under the table, so it's not like he's doing menial labor either.

The best way to fight illegal immigration is to SERIOUSLY punish those who hire them. Jail time (5 years) and serious fines ($100k+) for each and every offense. And ENFORCE IT. THAT is the way to stop it. Nothing else is going to work.

[jinx]

There aren't enough people to check every business... the number of businesses in this country is huge. Entering the country illegally is a crime - ENFORCE THAT LAW.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

There aren't enough people to stop them at the borders. .

Originally Posted by jinx

There aren't enough people to check every business....

Well, if it is labour shortage you're worried about, there's an easy, obvious, and already common solution...

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Well, if it is labour shortage you're worried about, there's an easy, obvious, and already common solution...

Funny. Might be a conflict of interest there though. Maybe.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I agree. I don't think we should EVER bailout ANY company. In the situation we are in, however, not bailing out the banks would have been a complete disaster.

How is it not already a complete disaster? The bailouts are just prolonging the inevitable.

Anyway, the banks are just the tip of the iceberg. The situation in California is just a glimmer of what may happen to the entire Western world. Letting industry and banking go without bailouts may have given us more short-term pain in exchange for lessening some long-term pain.

Read up on economics. Please.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I think all you people who are SO pro-business, and think business needs absolutely NO regulation, ar the ones who are ignorant. The business model has proven over and over again that they cannot be trusted to do anything that is in the best interest of the people of this country. They only do what is in their own best interest, and that means putting money in their own pockets at the expense of everyone else.

Ever hear of game theory? Part of the reason the banking and finance industry imploded is because they had to work around regulations. The proportion varies depending on which expert you're listening to. Yes, they would have made some of the same mistakes but Federal regulations demonstrably incentivized unsound decisions, increasing the magnitude of the problem.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

How many millions of those jobs could someone who is here legally have right now, and not be on unemployment?

Anyone who supports business hiring illegal workers is supporting a form of slavery.

First, those jobs would likely go empty without undocumented migrant workers. Even with increased unemployment, like we're experiencing now, those jobs would still go unfilled to a significant extent because white collar workers are not going to do them until their situation becomes most dire. Even (especially?) blue collar workers aren't going to do hard manual labor unless they have to.

Second, look at your statement from the other direction: Anyone who supports immigration restrictions is supporting a form of slavery by giving business owners incentive and a supply of exploitable labor.

Think about it. If we made it easy for all non-hostile (like no ties to terrorist organizations) immigrants to gain official status then businesses would have no incentive to favor undocumented migrants over citizens, except when it comes to suitability for the work.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

He has been sent back 3 or 4 times already, and he just comes back. And he has a job that pays him $35/hour under the table, so it's not like he's doing menial labor either.

The best way to fight illegal immigration is to SERIOUSLY punish those who hire them.

First, that is meaningless unless you define `menial` and tell us what he does and tell us how much it costs him in lost wages when he is deported.

Second, you gotta be fucking kidding me. The easiest way to fight illegal immigration is to get rid of immigration restrictions. That is LESS work and LESS burden on the judicial system.

Incarcerating someone for 5 years costs MORE THAN THE FINE YOU PROPOSE. That's just insipid.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

How is it not already a complete disaster? The bailouts are just prolonging the inevitable.

Anyway, the banks are just the tip of the iceberg. The situation in California is just a glimmer of what may happen to the entire Western world. Letting industry and banking go without bailouts may have given us more short-term pain in exchange for lessening some long-term pain.

Read up on economics. Please.

As I have said other places, I did not support the bank bailout. In fact, I wrote letters and called all my reps and begged them not to support it. So I sort of agree with you on that.

Ever hear of game theory? Part of the reason the banking and finance industry imploded is because they had to work around regulations. The proportion varies depending on which expert you're listening to. Yes, they would have made some of the same mistakes but Federal regulations demonstrably incentivized unsound decisions, increasing the magnitude of the problem.

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. if that were true, what caused it the first time around in the 30s? They weren't heavily regulated back then were they?

First, those jobs would likely go empty without undocumented migrant workers. Even with increased unemployment, like we're experiencing now, those jobs would still go unfilled to a significant extent because white collar workers are not going to do them until their situation becomes most dire. Even (especially?) blue collar workers aren't going to do hard manual labor unless they have to.

Balony. The problem isn't getting people to do the jobs, the problem is getting the companies to pay a FAIR WAGE. If they paid a fair wage, the workers would be there. That is as ridiculous as Bill Gates saying they need to be able to import more IT and computer programmers/engineers, etc. There are PLENTY of those people already here. My cousin lost her job after the .com boom, and it took her over a year to find another job. Now she works for the IRS. She is plenty qualified to work for microshit though. Her sister is VP there.

Second, look at your statement from the other direction: Anyone who supports immigration restrictions is supporting a form of slavery by giving business owners incentive and a supply of exploitable labor.

Think about it. If we made it easy for all non-hostile (like no ties to terrorist organizations) immigrants to gain official status then businesses would have no incentive to favor undocumented migrants over citizens, except when it comes to suitability for the work.

Let me make my position clear. I think people should be able to live and work wherever they want. I think there should be a world standard for environmental issues, and work standards and ethics, and pay scales. I do not believe we should have borders, ANYWHERE. Since we do, however, it only makes sense to provide for the people who are legal citizens of THIS country first.

First, that is meaningless unless you define `menial` and tell us what he does and tell us how much it costs him in lost wages when he is deported.

He works in construction. I'm not exactly sure what his job title is or exactly what he does.

Second, you gotta be fucking kidding me. The easiest way to fight illegal immigration is to get rid of immigration restrictions. That is LESS work and LESS burden on the judicial system.

see above response.

Incarcerating someone for 5 years costs MORE THAN THE FINE YOU PROPOSE. That's just insipid.

So make them pay for their own incarceration as well. The point is, most of those executives will not wish to go to jail. If they KNEW they would not only pay a hefty fine, but also risk going to prison for 5 years PER offense, they might think twice before hiring illegals.

Also, you have to take into consideration that they never hire just one illegal, they hire many. So the fine would be much bigger than $100,000, and the prison sentence would much longer. (how much does it cost to incarcerate someone for a year?)

[slang]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

Anyway, the banks are just the tip of the iceberg. The situation in California is just a glimmer of what may happen to the entire Western world.

I completely agree.

A world wide reboot seems possible.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by slang

A world wide reboot seems possible.

I don't like the word reboot. It implies everything stopping and restarting. I don't think this will happen. There has never in recorded history been a time when all corporate entities (including governments, of course) have ceased functioning and all commerce has dried up. Mercury is too powerful a voice in the hearts of man.

Some institutions will topple completely and be rebuilt on new footings. Others will be radically restructured from the inside out. Some institutions, like venture capital, will evolve like they always have.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hmmm.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle
Anyway, the banks are just the tip of the iceberg. The situation in California is just a glimmer of what may happen to the entire Western world.

Actually what is happening in Calif is a perfect example of what happens when a government goes hog wild spending money they do not have. It is a microexample of what is starting to happen at the Federal level now.

[TheMercenary]

Basically we are going to be totally fucked by the Demoncrats who are now in control of Congress and are totally responsible for our fiscal future.

[Glinda]

Yeah, because we were effin FLUSH under BushCo, et al.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Glinda

Yeah, because we were effin FLUSH under BushCo, et al.

Inherited a recession in 2000, not so? Recovered from same.

Inherited a recession in 1982 also. Recovered, and engendered a prolonged boom.

Republicans both times, btw, not that I think party has much to do with it. Maintaining an environment where profitability is both easy enough and reliably expected is the secret. No, I don't think you can honestly plead either poverty or even straitened circumstances attributable to anything but decisions you made. Not then, at any rate.

Now the story may turn out differently. What Obama's ideas will give us is an inflation cycle like the 1970s, which some few writing on this board are too young to remember, and apparently not sufficiently educated to know. Otherwise, you would have zero enthusiasm for the Democrats' inventing a couple trillions out of, well, nothing really.